93 - What Does Biblical Masculinity Look Like

What does biblical masculinity really look like?

In a culture that often portrays men as either weak and incompetent or aggressive and domineering, it can be difficult to separate stereotypes from Scripture. In this episode, we explore how the Bible defines masculinity and why Jesus—not celebrities, influencers, or cultural trends—is the ultimate example of what a man should be.

Looking at passages like 1 Corinthians 16:13 and the life of Christ, we discuss strength, courage, humility, leadership, emotion, and service. We examine common misconceptions about masculinity, the debate surrounding "toxic masculinity," and how Jesus demonstrated power without pride, leadership without domination, and emotion without losing self-control.

Whether you're a husband, father, young man, or simply trying to better understand God's design for men, this conversation challenges us to pursue a masculinity shaped by Christ rather than culture.

Contact the Exhorter Podcast

• Email us at media@clovischurchofchrist.org
• Find us on Facebook or Instagram

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Cold Open And Masculinity Banter

Jon 0:04

Welcome to the Exhorter podcast, where you're going to strip love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. Welcome back to the uh podcast, and as we normally do, one of us will take the lead. What are we gonna talk about today?

Kyle 0:22

I just told you it was, so you need to be more you need to be more confident, John, because today we're talking about many.

Jon 0:30

Can I redo the intro? Welcome to the exorder podcast.

Nate 0:34

No, you did the in the you did the intro twice though. You said welcome to the exhorter podcast where we aim to stir up a lot of good work. And then you said welcome. Maybe I didn't. So let's cut that. No, it was good. It was great.

Jon 0:47

I like it. I think but now we have to talk in more manly tones. Now let me see if I can lower our register for any talk about masculinity. Yes, yes. Sorry, Kyle.

Nate 0:58

Over to you.

Pop Culture Dads And The Manosphere

Kyle 1:00

Alright, well, let's go out the parking lot. Are you done? Let's go out in the parking lot and have a fight, and then we'll come back in here. There you go. Uh, you know, manliness. Well, there's a lot to be said about masculinity today, and you know, men, men don't always look good um in in pop culture, and you see that on TV shows and sitcoms. Uh you got like the the Homer Simpsons out there on the TV shows, and uh just across the board dads tend to be portrayed as kind of uh you know good-natured but bumbling uh dummies or idiots or whatever, and uh, you know, but uh you get this overreaction on the other side too in uh pop culture, like on YouTube, you get the manosphere, is what they call all those uh hypermasculine men who do their their podcasts or YouTube channels and present a version of masculinity that is maybe an overcorrection to what we see in uh popular media.

What People Mean By Toxic Masculinity

Kyle 2:01

And so I just wanted to spend some time defining some of these terms and trying to understand from a biblical perspective uh ultimately Jesus is gonna be the best example to look at, but just looking from a biblical perspective at at uh what really is masculine and why is that an important consideration?

Nate 2:21

Yeah, masculinity has almost become like a bad word in the last, I don't know, decade. Maybe it's been like that for longer than that because of feminism.

Jon 2:30

Well, and that's the thing is I don't know if you hear the word masculinity by itself anymore. It's just usually toxic masculinity. It's as if that is the only masculinity.

Nate 2:41

Like growing up, I don't remember it being like a a bad word. Like masculine was a good thing for a man.

Kyle 2:47

Well, that's because we grew up and had Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger. That's right.

Jon 2:52

And uh Dolph Lundgren, you know, all the things we as men we don't use the word masculinity because that's kind of you're talking about the thing. I think it I think it's only used from a feminist perspective to talk about the way men are. As men, we know what we are, and I don't know. I don't usually use the idea, I don't I don't refer to something as uh masculine or not, you know.

Kyle 3:16

But what do you guys think of when you hear the phrase toxic masculinity? Because there's a couple of ways you might interpret that. Kyle. What? That's what I think about.

Nate 3:26

I think about you think about Kyle? Yeah. How often do you think about Kyle, John?

Jon 3:30

Only when we talk about toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity. I I think of YouTube videos and I just think of all the the anti-um Jordan Peterson, you know, world. It's it's basically everyone um you know putting that into a box and then Jordan Peterson and in the cronies and the the world kind of pushing back against it. And I just think of this uh ideas um demonizing men for being men. There's but I know that there's I know there's bad examples of everything. That's the problem, is is you know, is there such a thing as really toxic masculinity, or are they just bad people who do dumb things and mean things? Why is it associated with masculine tendencies, you know, that all men are that way? I think there's men who act like jerks and there's men who don't, right?

Nate 4:19

So is there toxic femininity?

Kyle 4:22

Well, that's not what we're talking about in this episode. But but yes, you talk about, you know, there's there's there's different types of feminism out there too that that have different goals or different purposes. So yeah, I would say that's true. But I I guess kind of digging down into this question would be uh what's your reaction to it when you hear someone talk about toxic masculinity? Does it feel like an attack on masculinity in general? Well, what I'm what I mean by that is is we could look at that idea of toxic masculinity from kind of two different perspectives. Is it an attack on masculinity? Are they saying and suggesting that masculinity itself is toxic? Or what is it that what is it that it's that's targeting? What is it set against?

Nate 5:09

Yeah. Yeah, I I can see, I see what you're saying there. Like um, there's a level of masculinity, maybe you take it too far, like uh the roid rage kind of masculinity, um, which is toxic, um, as opposed to just like a man being a man, which is not necessarily toxic. It's just, you know, the way God made us. Men are have a certain role and are supposed to behave a certain way in different situations, and that's what masculinity is. Can you take that too far? Sure. You can take just about anything too far. And would you call that toxic? Yeah, I guess you could. It's not good for you or anybody else to take that too far. Um, so I can see the two kind of different definitions of toxic masculinity. But I usually think when I think of when I hear the phrase toxic masculinity, that someone is attacking being masculine.

Jon 6:08

I agree. Thank you for your comments, too. No, I I I I do think it seems like, you know, uh like like the word chauvinism. Um there are things where people take wit things way too far, right? But now I think that these the definitions and these certain words are used and their their application has been just stretched to being labeled on lots of things that probably really they shouldn't be. And I I think that, you know, if a if a man is super domineering, it does not show love for his wife, um, he's just a bad Christian at that point. I don't think that it's because he's toxic in masculinity. I think he's not following God's commands, you know? And so that's why I don't like the words because I feel like it's just a label to demonize men and the roles that we've been given. Yeah.

Kyle 7:04

Because once once it becomes in that category of quote unquote toxic, I would argue and agree with you. Uh, I would contend that it's not biblical masculinity at that point. So it's it's more just toxic behavior uh that that maybe is an exaggeration. You know, we we look at some of the distinctions, and that that's some basic fundamentals in the Bible that God created man and woman to be different. And throughout the scriptures, uh, in the law of Moses, he said, uh a man shall not wear what pertains to a woman, nor shall a woman wear what pertains to a man. And you go into the New Testament and you see the same kinds of teachings like in 1 Corinthians 11, um about uh hair. Yeah, and and and presentation uh in in worship and things like that. And just it acknowledges that men and women are different and have different roles. Now, Galatians 3, verse 28 says neither male nor female, we're all one in Christ. So we're all of equal value, but the Bible has always maintained that we have different roles, and I think the fact that we are just born with inherent differences, um, you know, and there's there's some exceptions out there, but the exception does not become the rule. In general, men and women are born differently. And I would suggest that the idea of toxic masculinity is just an exaggeration of what's inherent in man, but it's exaggerated to a point of uh a perversion of what masculinity should be. So I don't really like the idea that that that phrase toxic masculinity, but because it seems to be an attack on the idea of masculinity, but it's not, it's like a straw man. What they define as masculinity, like I said, is just an exaggeration of the fact that men are typically born stronger, bigger, stronger uh than women physically. And so, you know, the idea of toxic masculinity, as John pointed out earlier, is like abusing power, um, something like that. So that that's where I struggle with with those terms and don't really like them because I I get what they're saying, but there's that ambiguity in how people might what their meaning is, and yeah, uh, I I don't really like the concept that it represents something when it really doesn't. I mean, masculinity is not inherently toxic. Yeah, yeah.

Act Like Men And Bad Definitions

Kyle 9:24

So one scripture that always comes to my mind that seems to be in support of just the concept of masculinity um is 1 Corinthians 16. Every time I read Corinthians and I get to the end, 1 Corinthians 16 and verse 13 says, Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. It's just kind of interesting parting words that Paul gives to the Corinthians there that acting like men is not a bad thing. So, who would be some examples you guys could think of? Um, first of all, what what would be some easy ways to maybe improperly define masculinity? What are some like wrong definitions that are popular? What are some maybe like shortcuts where, like, yeah, that's kind of, but that's surface level. What what are some ways that people misidentify masculinity that you've seen?

Nate 10:20

Always aggressive? Like I there's a time to be alpha male or bulldog.

Kyle 10:25

You know, you hear people talk about, well, that's just very you're very beta or, you know, I'm an alpha.

Nate 10:30

Yeah, and you uh um I don't think you I don't think masculinity is always aggressive, although I would say it's more aggressive than femininity. And there's a time and a place to be uh aggressive, um, but you have to have the self-control to do that. So I think there's a uh misnomer about masculinity that it is.

Kyle 10:51

I don't know. Girls can be pretty mean and aggressive in a different kind of way.

Nate 10:56

They made a movie about that, I think, with Lindsay Lohan. Um Yeah, so I think that that's it's not accurate that uh masculinity is always like overly aggressive.

Kyle 11:09

John, are you you're you're loading something up over there? I I can tell it.

Nate 11:12

Are you watching Mean Girls?

Jon 11:14

No. Oh. Oh, is that what the that was that with the Lindsay? You were looking at Lindsay Lohan? No, I was wondering what the reference was to.

Nate 11:22

The movie Mean Girls.

Jon 11:23

Yeah.

Nate 11:23

No, I've got it now. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right.

Jon 11:26

Um, I I do think, because at the end of the day, I think women want men who act like men. Yeah. You know, like I think they want um, I think that that's what they want. I think that when they have their priorities and their thoughts crossed, they want to make men feminine for some domineering. You know, I think that that's I mean, that's what that's what the that's what God told Eve. Yeah, you know, she would want to do. She'd want to usurp her husband's, you know, authority. So I think that that's kind of innate, but I also think that it's because we don't look at the roles properly. Yeah. And we we we think that if men, if women were more like men or men were more like women, they'd understand us better and communication would be better and all that stuff. And I think that we need to empathize a little bit and understand each other better, but I don't think we need to, you know, roll swap and be more like the other. I I don't think that that's I think we need to be more like Christ. We center ourselves on Christ and then and then we'll be we'll be better. But I don't think it's a role thing that we split. I think the misnomer is that the the thought is that you you might need a beard to be masculine, and I think that's completely incorrect. You absolutely need a beard to be masculine.

Kyle 12:45

Well, but that's another way where we sort of I think misidentify what masculinity is is through surface level uh affectations. And so yeah, yeah, beard. But that one's okay because John, you're trying a little too hard here.

Jon 13:00

Am I trying? Yeah. Yeah, you're a man.

Nate 13:02

I like my beard. You guys like your beard. That would be feminine of me to say I like your beard.

Jon 13:08

Would that be? Oh, I didn't ask you to like my beard. That's weird.

Kyle 13:11

Okay. But Nate's life, Nate's wife doesn't like his beard, so she likes my beard.

Nate 13:16

No, she does now. She likes my beard. She doesn't like my mustache. But I'm not shaving my mustache and keeping the beard. I'm not sure. You want to Jacob Yoderit? Yeah. One of those weird Amish beards. No, I'm good.

Kyle 13:27

And we lost two more. But Jessica's gonna be gone for two weeks this summer. I think I'm gonna try the mustache while she's gone.

Nate 13:33

And are the girls going with her? Are they still?

Kyle 13:36

I get empty house.

Nate 13:37

Bro, let's hang out. Kyle. What question are we trying to answer with this episode?

Kyle 13:44

Well, just uh what is what is masculinity? What is masculinity?

Nate 13:49

Oh, oh, okay.

Kyle 13:50

Yeah, so I was just saying, like, what are some of the what are some of the trends you see that kind of misidentify it? And so we get the we get the influencers, um, yeah, I don't really I don't really follow any of them, but I know who a lot of them are, like Andrew Tate, people like that that get all these followers talk about, you know, we need to make you a high value man, and I kind of see what he's going for there, but it also seems like he's presenting a very self-centered version of masculinity. And so by contrast all those things that we we were talking about with uh just the the affectations, you know, there's nothing wrong with dressing like a lumberjack or wearing a car heart jacket and cowboy boots and you know having a beard and stuff like that. But if that's masculinity is more than just looking a certain way, um, you know, you're the opposite of feminine uh in appearance, uh, or it's more than just being high value or something like that, whatever definition you get on YouTube.

Why Jesus Defines True Manhood

Kyle 14:48

But I think the best way we could understand masculinity is simply looking at Jesus and considering just the fact that he is like the ultimate man. And it's not it's not always in those most obvious Sylvester Stallone, John Wayne kind of like bravado kind of ways, but you see it more than just it's it's more than just skin deep. It's uh it's a matter of character and uh just just a matter of of what you value.

Nate 15:19

Well, so strength is not always um I think strength is a huge part of masculinity. Um, but it's not it doesn't always have to be obvious or um parade itself around like look at how strong I am. And when I think of Jesus, I mean, is is he strong? You know, is he an example of strength? Of of course he is, but he doesn't go around saying, you know, like look how big my muscles are, or look how strong or or good or powerful I am. He just is strong.

Kyle 15:59

Yeah, well, and and he uses it for good purposes. And so you do see, this was interesting. Um, I found a book that that someone talked about um trying to calculate uh based on estimates from the scriptures, how much um walking Jesus did during his three-year ministry. And one study suggested he traveled on foot about 2,500 miles during a three-year span, on foot, just going everywhere teaching and doing miracles. And when people when hold on.

Nate 16:38

Everybody, you should see John's face as Kyle chews his cough drop.

Jon 16:43

I'm thinking about you. You're the one that gave him a cough drop. Yeah, well, he coughed his brains out.

Kyle 16:50

I'm a little child, it's your fault, mate.

Nate 16:52

I'm about to get over masculine right now. I'm getting mad.

Kyle 16:55

You're gonna flip flip some tables like Jesus.

Nate 16:57

I'm getting angry.

Kyle 16:58

Yeah, what would Jesus do? Flipping tables and whipping is always an option. Um no, but but the idea here is that uh you see the paintings of Jesus and what what does Jesus usually look like in in these Renaissance?

Nate 17:15

He does not look massive, he looks he looks feminine in those paintings. The long hair, kind of the the Mona Lisa kind of like I'm not sure what is that a smile, is that a grimace? Is that you know I'm not sure what's on his face, but he's not like a man. Well, masculine. Yeah, like painting.

Kyle 17:35

He looks like he just got his hair straightened and has some mascara on and stuff like that. Little metro. And uh, you know, his his facial expressions in these paintings is always kind of it just looks like he's he's always ready to to cry or something. And yeah, I'll come back to that. There there's there's a time and place for emotion and crime.

Nate 17:52

Soft.

Kyle 17:53

Yeah.

Nate 17:53

Soft. Good.

Kyle 17:54

But good John. Think back think back what people thought of him of the day when in Matthew 16, when Jesus said, What what do people say about the that who the Son of Man is? And what were some of the answers that that the apostles gave him?

Nate 18:07

A prophet.

Kyle 18:08

A prophet, you know, one of the prophets from the Old Testament. You guys remember some of the specific names that that that's what people were thinking about who he was?

Nate 18:16

Elijah.

Kyle 18:17

Elijah and John the Baptist.

Nate 18:19

Elijah was pretty manly.

Kyle 18:21

Yeah. So you think just what was the opinion of Jesus by his contemporaries? It's like Elijah or John the Baptist or Jeremiah. Very bold, outspoken. Um Elijah and John the Baptist were woodsmen. They were they were gruff and probably didn't smell very good. Yeah. Uh so I just think it's interesting just to consider, even on the surface level, sometimes we mischaracterize Jesus, I think. And he was physically strong. Well, he was a carpenter. Yeah. Yeah. So he probably had Popeye style forearms. And uh, you know, yeah, was strong, and and uh people thought of him that way as someone that was bold and maybe someone you didn't want to mess with. And of course, he did flip tables and drive people out of the temple and uh showed showed some great strength at times. But we also think in terms of like a greater degree of strength, um, and the fact that he had a measure, an incredible measure of control over that strength. That as the creator of everything, he had all power, all authority on heaven and on earth. And with the cross, he could have called thousands of angels to rescue him. Yet he made himself a servant. You know, in Matt uh Mark chapter 10, verse 45, Jesus said that uh the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and give himself as a ransom for many. Like in John 13, when he got down and washed his disciples' feet. That was an incredibly humble display and and shows that that you know, real masculinity and the way I think about Jesus as far as the the model man is the way Paul sets him up in many of his letters. You had the first Adam, who is Adam, because that's the Hebrew word, Adam is the Hebrew word for man. And so Adam was the first, literally broke the mold for men after him. But he failed, and we've all failed, and Jesus is the second Adam. And every way that Adam and all of us have failed, he succeeds. So he to me is the ultimate, like the ultimate one to look to as our example on this. And so he he was a servant, he was he was helping others, he had all this strength, but it wasn't used for building wealth, building a portfolio, making himself high value or any of those more selfish things. He used his power and strength to serve

Strength Under Control And Service

Kyle 20:41

others. And so we see this in the fact that men, you know, we're called upon to be providers for our family, protectors. We're we're we're we have strength, but masculinity is more than just being physically strong. And that's where people get the idea of toxic masculinity, is one of my favorite phrases in the Bible, um because I think it's kind of sad, but uh is is you get several people in the Bible that are described as worthless men or worthless fellows. And I think that's maybe where you get that idea of toxic masculinity, where you take masculinity, you take strength, you take those qualities that should be uh refined, like we see in Jesus, but they're misused. Judges 19 in verse 22, it talks about um certain worthless fellows surrounded the house, pounding the door, and they basically wanted to rape the guest of that person's house. Uh, and then you've got first Samuel chapter two and verse 12 the sons of Eli were worthless men. So that that's the idea. And that phrase pops up a few more times, but uh the idea of worthless men, I I think that's your toxic masculinity in the Bible, where it's it's using your strength for selfish reasons, but Jesus was a servant. So he Used his strength, his abilities, his resources, and served others.

Nate 22:04

And I think that physical strength is the least valuable of all the strengths. You know, you think of spiritual strength or or mental slash emotional strength. Um, those are much more valuable in life than physical strength. And so I think, you know, this idea of toxic masculinity. Um, I I do when I see that phrase, I do think of, you know, like the physically strong man. There and there's something good to be said for that, but um, but that is like the the least valuable of all the kinds of strength you could have.

Honouring Women And Servant Headship

Jon 22:40

Yeah, and it definitely showed w with his humility, washing the disciples' feet and doing things like this, that's it's counter to ego, it's counter to that that uh negative pridefulness that we see. Um another point I was thinking about is a lot of times we think of the idea of toxic masculinity in its relation to females and women. It's usually you know, it's usually coined by things more by females calling it out in men, uh-huh, but also it's it's a differentiator, you know, between the two. And so um what makes Jesus a great example of masculinity that's not toxic is he honored women a lot more in a culture that didn't. Uh so if we think about it, uh he spoke theology to the Samaritan woman with Mary, let Mary sit at the disciples' feet. Uh, he appeared to women the first and gave them uh a message, and trusted them to go take it out. Like there's lots of different examples of Jesus having a positive relationship with females. I think that that we can look at as a good example of masculinity not always being toxic. That's a good example to use because I do think hopefully women, and we can please reach out to us, put in the notes, you know, put in the comments. Um, but I mean I I feel like we I hear it more from the female perspective using this phrase and that. And I would hope that they they don't attribute that to Christianity in Christ, because he he was the better example for us men to follow. And I would hope that that that's something that they don't put on him and put on you know his walk.

Kyle 24:22

Well though he was in in normal terms uh unmarried throughout his life, in the bigger picture we understand that Jesus is our example as husbands, um, you know, in a much bigger, comprehensive spiritual sense. Uh Ephesians 5 teaches us that husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

Nate 24:42

Yeah, sacrificial.

Kyle 24:43

That he is the head of the church. There is that authority, sure, but a lot of times you get this uh chauvinistic side of of male dominance that we're superior to women, or being the head of the household means I have the tie-breaking vote and deal with it. And yes, we have authority, but the idea is that that we're supposed to do what is in the best interest of others and we lead, but we lead with that motivation. And on that end, uh just kind of tying these two ideas that Jesus was a servant, and that's masculinity, is we take our power and we work so that we can provide for our family. Even if that means uh we give up on some things that maybe we want, well, if it provides for my family, I'm using my strength for someone else. And you couple that with the idea that Jesus was humble. You know, I when I think about toxic masculinity, pride is the main thing that comes to my mind. Yeah. Philippians 2 and verse 6 says that Jesus, although existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for his own advantage. Instead, he emptied himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men, and when he had come as a man in his external form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even to death on a cross. So he harnessed himself with his strength and used it not for his own advantage, but to better everyone else's lives.

Nate 26:12

I think that's one of the core tenets of masculinity is um the ability to provide or produce. And the uh the idea that how Christ points that towards um providing for others, serving others. I think that's where um Christian masculinity maybe differs from the the world's definition of masculinity is that we we use that ability to provide for for others, to serve others and and build them up and provide for them.

Jon 26:44

Well, yeah, because he uses his authority for others, not over others. And yeah, the point is um and and I think we'll talk about pride a little bit more and a little deeper because I do think that it's a misunderstood term and word, and we use it kinda always in a negative context, but that is a great scripture explaining that how Jesus humbled himself in general, and then how, you know, like you're saying, Nate, it it's about using the authority given to us in our role to serve people and not to lord over people. And I say we joke about this in the terms. I think we have a healthy respect for women, we have the healthiest respect for for people in general, and uh, I think that it's never okay when we find and we know of men or we see examples of people who are just not being Christ-like in general, you know, let alone being maybe an example of this phrase and this word that we're kind of highlighting toxic.

Kyle 27:33

Well, I think the humility also comes in from the standpoint of any scripture that talks about, like we referenced 1 Corinthians 11 earlier. Any scripture that references the difference or distinction and role sort of gives a nod to the fact that, well, you know, we're all subject to Christ. So men don't get a big head. Like 1 Corinthians 11 says, you know, men just remember the first woman came from man. You know, Eve was taken from Adam's rib. But then he goes on in the very next verse to say, but every man since then has come from woman. So like don't get a big head just because God created man first. That is important, but don't get a big head about it because every man has come from a woman since then. And I I think it's important to remember that that the headship that we talk about in scripture is rooted in service, not in being selfish. Uh Exodus 23 and verse 17. This is just you might not have caught this before, but I want you to listen to how this is worded. Three times a year, all the men are to appear before the sovereign Lord. It's a requirement. Three times every year, all your males are required to appear before the Lord God. And that's talking about the three primary festival days in Jerusalem. And so the idea of headship, leadership uh for men in in the law of Moses wasn't so much as like you guys are honored, you guys are awesome, so you get to do this. It's more like you are required to do this. And does it come naturally for us to be leaders? No, it's something we have to step up and and live up to be something we're called to be.

Nate 29:17

There's some significant responsibility there. You know, that whole um appearing before the sovereign lord three times a year, like that's kind of a big deal. And not in a way that men should puff up their chest and say, look at me, but in a way like, men, you better get it together and make sure you're doing the right stuff because you you're gonna be held accountable before God.

Kyle 29:39

There's vulnerability in that. Yeah, it's what it's what the Lord expects of me. So it's not just that I'm in charge, it's that I'm subject to Christ. Yeah, in the in the household, I have a leadership role, a headship role within the family and within the home. But also in the bigger picture, I am subject to Christ, and I'm just like a steward. All my possessions, all the people in my life, my my wife, my children that are under my charge, if you will, I gotta give an answer for how I treated them and and uh because none of it belongs to me.

Crying Self-Control And Healthy Emotion

Kyle 30:11

So I I think another trait of masculinity we can see in Christ, and this is where maybe one of those false ideas of masculinity is uh one of my favorite country songs back when I was back in high school is Tim McGraw. And uh Grown Men Don't Cry. I don't know why they say grown men don't cry.

Jon 30:30

He kind of pokes at that trope. Because they don't, Kyle. If I had tear ducks, I would yeah, I actually I don't think I sweat from the tear ducks as well.

Kyle 30:41

Well, John's dead inside, but um ginger. No salt, no salt. No, I I I cry all the time, and uh not all the time. More than you should.

Jon 30:54

Have you been drinking soy milk? You know, soy milk is high in estrogen. No, I mean that's it, it's always been something I've wrestled with too. It's I I feel like I was a lot more emotional as a child than I am as an adult, but I I was very emotional as a child, so I think it's probably in the last I would say 10 years, I get less emotional. I mean, and so there's still a song or Lord's Supper talk or things that are put into perspective that get me teary-eyed and I get chills or you know, I get emotional about, and especially you know, you see someone like another man out there doing one of those things and get emotional and stuff. It's hard not to get emotional when other people get emotional. Um, that means you're not a serial killer and you actually have you know empathy. Um, but I do think that the stigma and in the perspective, even I we we we put that on ourselves too. Like we feel ashamed when we do that in public or around people, like we need to kind of hide it. And uh I I remember even feeling that way, you know, at my own family's funerals. Like, yeah, you know, and then kind of at one point I see how blubbering my brother was, and I'm like, okay, well, I can I can shed a tear, yeah. Uh, you know, but like I don't know, I I feel that too, that there is there is something baked into us to feel by society, by anything, that I need to kind of like hold that off and and hold you know, hold it a little bit together. I'm sure my wife appreciates that too, because I don't think I think women like the idea of men being emotional, but I don't think they want a man that's sobbing at uh Hallmark commercials like there's probably a level to that. I don't know what that is. Maybe maybe I'm putting words in her mouth or other things, but I think there's a there's a certain level, maybe that uh certain people don't want.

Kyle 32:41

But I think showing control and self-control in spite of emotion, that that can self-control can coexist with emotion. Yeah, yeah. And so that that's what I've always acknowledged as the distinction where emotions are not bad. Emotions are not bad. Emotions are something we see in God, and that's part of, in my mind, part of how we're created in his image. And so any emotion you have is not inherently a bad thing. Although, when emotions, kind of like in the movie Inside Out, when they when they take control of the big control board in your brain and uh start start overriding your your actions and your emotions take control or take the wheel, you make bad choices. And so, like when we lash out in anger, but it's not to say that anger is inherently wrong. Anger keeps us from being indifferent. Sometimes we need to be angry, but that doesn't mean we lash out in anger. And we see Jesus, he he was pretty angered at at what they were doing in the temple, his his father's house, and uh he did lash out, but I don't I wouldn't say that's lashing out in anger, but anger motivated him to do something big to make a point. And I think the same thing is true with sorrow and grief and things like that. When we talk about crying, there are plenty of examples in the scripture where it's okay to let your guard down and let people know you feel things and you show that emotion, and but again, to become overwhelmed with emotion, I think that's where yeah, yeah, a little self-control helps.

Jon 34:13

Yeah, and I think of well in one of the best Star Trek movies that they've ever made. Remember that scene, you know, with with Chris Pine in John chapter 11. I already know. No, no, no. Linnar Nimoy with Chris Pine and Linnar Nimoy when he says, Um, how do I get Spock uh to be emotionally compromised? And he says, Uh, my my mom just my whole family just died, my world just blew up. I am emotionally uh compromised. I was saying one of the best. The one JJ Abrams movie that was watching. That was with Nimoy, okay. Okay, he was in that, but that's saying is that's uh I would think of that as an example of someone who is still very emotional. Um, there's you can't separate that, but maybe has some more control over it, and maybe that's good and maybe that's bad. Sometimes it's probably bad, especially if people it's beneficial to show emotion.

Kyle 35:00

Well, and you know, the famous example you're probably thinking of is John chapter 11, verse 35. Jesus wept. I I wouldn't say this is like some sort of uncontrollable, like just making a scene, but also it the next verse says that when the Jews, then the Jews said, see how he loved him. Like it was enough to show people what he was feeling in that moment, and Jesus wasn't afraid to let people know. Here's how I feel. I feel sorrow.

Nate 35:26

Well, and it says Jesus wept, it doesn't say and Jesus went around weeping. Like he wasn't a weepy guy. I I don't think that he was, you know, m crying at every day. It was uh it was an it was an appropriate situation for a man to shed some or for anybody to shed some tears. His friend had died.

Kyle 35:46

I don't think that like after an encounter with the Pharisees, he didn't go back to his disciples and they were so mean to me.

Nate 35:52

Yeah.

Kyle 35:53

Um but but another example is is Acts chapter 20, and this is one that just just think about this scene. Paul meets with the uh elders from Ephesus, he's on his way back to Jerusalem, and he knows this is gonna end probably with me being arrested, maybe being killed. I this might be the last time we see each other. And in Acts chapter 20, not only does Paul mention that um verse 35, I've shown you in every way by laboring like this that you must wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh, okay. What he says in verse 31 of Acts chapter 20, therefore, watch and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears, show the sincerity of his pleading with them and how how how much he meant it and how much he was trying to appeal to him. But then look at this scene um when when they they prayed in verse 36, they knelt down and prayed together, and then they all wept freely and fell on Paul's neck and kissed him, sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke that they would see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship. I like that send-off. And I just think, you know, men, we should shy away um, you know, from uh from affection and uh or or uh I remember watching King of the Hill and uh Hank's wife Peggy wanted to hold his hand in the story. He's like, not in front of other people, Peggy. Especially when it's like with with with other friends and things like that, we shouldn't but I think those are good examples that show showing emotion, even being vulnerable, not to the extent where your your decision making is compromised or or something to that degree, but just showing some vulnerability and emotion.

Jon 37:37

That's the question I was gonna ask. Totally consistent to what to what degree, you know, like we want we want to state that we think it's healthy and it's masculine to to be emotional, but to what degree you're so you just mentioned when you're compromised. It's okay to cry. No, but we you just mentioned when your judgment is compromised, or like so to what degree, you know, like when when do we feel like maybe it's not? I don't think we have that problem because I don't generally think many of us go to that nth degree, you know. I think we could probably always use more.

Nate 38:12

What you're saying is we're not overly emotional.

Jon 38:14

Our problem is it'sn't that we do too much, but I do but I am bringing that up. Like I'm curious as though to what degree is that um, you know, do we show restraint? And I mean you're wondering.

Nate 38:27

I wonder if the pushback against masculinity in the last, I don't know, however many decades, um, is partially because of the uh tendency towards this stoicism where men don't show any emotion, no matter the situation. And so maybe society has pushed back against that because it's so extreme, and now it's going to the other end where men are behaving like women. And uh that's not it's certainly not how God intended things to be. I I don't think he intended either of them. Yeah. This this stoic never show any emotion versus the uh you know all always showing and I always I think in my dad, he he was everyone he always kind of had a frown on his face.

Jon 39:11

I think everyone always thought he was just really grumpy. Um, and he was grumpy a good amount of times. So I mean they were right, but there was a softer side to him and things like this. And he definitely had a very deep caring for people and their their spiritual being and everything. So I I think that we can do too much by withholding. And I would say that if you're that way with your wife, that's probably where you need to do the most work first. Like they need to see the emotion that you have. You need to show that softer side, you need to show that empathy and that understanding. If you want to be a little colder, a little stoic, you know, to the the rest of the outside world and not let be vulnerable and everything. I get that to a degree, you know. But I think our kids especially need to see that, you know, our emotions, the positive emotions, not the anger.

Nate 39:56

Well, I think it's but under under control, yeah. Right? Like there's a time and a place for a person to cry, and there's a time and a place not to knowing when that is okay is that's what we need to do. Yeah, we need to know when when it's okay to show that and when it's not.

Jon 40:14

Um do you think it'll be good for your daughters to see their father cry?

Nate 40:18

At certain things, yes. At certain things, no.

Jon 40:21

Yeah. So not not at the kill because you're sad about it, because you're super happy about it.

Nate 40:26

Oh, right. Right, yeah. When it like yeah, when I've just harvested a deer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon 40:31

It's healthy for them to see all the sides of men.

Nate 40:36

Yeah, yeah. Appropriate emotions.

Courage Honesty And Finishing Well

Kyle 40:38

Yeah, that's well, and you think about Jesus, um, the intensity of his prayer in Gethsemane in a somewhat private moment, though three other disciples were there, Peter, James, and John. But I think this also brings up a question of cur courage, and something we see in Jesus is doing what's right, doing what God expects of us, um, and laying down our lives, sacrificing for others, not seeking self-preservation at all costs. But and I think probably the single most powerful statement Jesus ever said in Scripture, Matthew 28, verse 18, listen, we are going up to Jerusalem. He knew full well what that meant. And he wasn't crying about it, and he wasn't he he had that moment in the garden, a little more private, a little more time in his own thoughts, and some of his friends were there, but he wasn't crying about it. He was courageous about it. He's he knew exactly what that meant. He said, We are going up to Jerusalem.

Nate 41:31

Resolution.

Kyle 41:32

And I'm gonna be handed over the chief priests scribes, they're gonna condemn me to death, and but we're going up to Jerusalem, we're doing this, and so that's courage, and sometimes we need that courage too. Where so, John, to answer your question about where does this kind of get out of control and um crying too much, you know, what did Paul do after having crying openly with the elders from Ephesus and praying? And he got on a boat and went to Jerusalem and did the next thing. He showed some emotion, but he did not let that emotion stop him from the next thing that needed to happen in his life. And so when we allow sorrow to turn into wallowing on the couch eating ice cream and inactivity, that's where it becomes a problem. Like we can't yield to our emotions to that degree, but being vulnerable and showing emotions at the appropriate times, I think we're doing a disservice to our children in particular, if they never see that side of us as a father. We do a disservice to our wives. Well, and the final thing I would say is with Jesus, he also John 13, verse 34. Jesus felt emotions, but he also expressed his emotions. He told people, Just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. And he asked Peter in John chapter 21, Do you love me? And for a man to say I love you to another man, you know, we look at that. Yeah, it invites mockery, and people will think that's a little bit feminine or something, that men shouldn't express that thought. But we need to tell others how we feel. And you think about Jesus, and part of this is just, you know, being honest and straightforward. Jesus never sugarcoated it, he never exaggerated the truth to keep disciples. No, you're not gonna like it. The foxes have a hole to sleep in. I don't even have that to offer you. You probably wouldn't like following me. Uh, if you want to follow me, you gotta take up your cross and come die with me. He wasn't gonna sugarcoat things just to keep people around, say what they wanted to hear. He was a straight shooter, and and that came true also when it came to expressing how he felt. Uh, when Peter was in the wrong, get behind me, Satan. When people were in the wrong, he warned them. Scribes and Pharisees. He called them all kinds of names because they needed to change. And so, you know, I think that's another component of masculinity. So in Jesus, we just we see different components of masculinity. He was humble and served others. That's a huge component. He wasn't self-serving, he had power and strength, but he used it to the benefit of others. He wasn't afraid to feel emotion and let people see that emotion. He wasn't afraid to tell others what he was thinking, what he was feeling, and being completely honest about it. So those are some very strong masculine qualities we see in Jesus, who is the, I think, the ultimate example of what we should strive for as men.

Key Takeaways And Listener Next Steps

Nate 44:22

Well, Kyle, thank you for uh for bringing a good episode to us about masculinity. We talked about toxic masculinity, what masculinity is is not, maybe what society has made it up to be, but what it's not. And then Christian masculinity, using that strength under control um for the benefit and and service of others. So thank you for bringing that to us today. To our listeners, if this has been valuable for you, please like, subscribe, and share. If you have questions about what we've said uh here today, please leave them in the show notes in the comments, and we'll do our best to address those. Thank you, Kyle.

Jon 45:10

And if you have any critiques, you can email Kyle directly or call him on his personal cell phone.

Nate 45:16

Email the elders at Clovis Church of Christ.org.

Kyle 45:19

You can email me at John.bradfordgmail. Just remember, remember what Paul said. Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, and subscribe.

Nate 45:31

Very good.

Jon 45:36

Welcome to the Exorder Podcast, where you describe love and good works through bite-sized biblical destruction.

Nate 45:43

Destruction. Very good.

Jon 45:45

Well, sometimes I like that.

Nate 45:50

That was a good that was a great answer. Um well, we're tearing down strong holes. Sinful nature.

Kyle 46:00

Save that one for Mormonism Part 2.