89 - How to Talk to Mormons: A Biblical Approach

Mormons are often kind, family-oriented, and eager to talk about faith—but conversations can quickly stall once you move beyond the surface. In this episode, we walk through a real relationship that led to ongoing Bible study with an LDS couple and highlight how easy it is to use the same words while meaning very different things.

At the heart of the discussion is authority: Is the Bible the complete word of God, or one of several sources alongside modern revelation and additional writings? We explore key differences in belief, examine how concepts like a personal “witness” function in conversations, and compare these ideas with Scripture.

Along the way, we share practical, respectful ways to engage—how to ask better questions, think through claims, and keep the focus on truth without losing kindness. You don’t have to have every answer, but you do need to know God’s word and speak it with gentleness and clarity.

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Transcript

Welcome And Topic Setup

Jon 0:03

Welcome to the Exorder Podcast, where aimed to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion or conversation. Depending on if me or Colin talking about, yeah, yeah, yeah. To a lesser extent. To a lesser extent. Yeah. Um, and Nate, you're gonna lead us off for our topic uh today. What are we gonna be talking about?

A Playground Friendship With LDS Neighbors

Nate 0:24

Well, um, we're gonna be talking about uh um talking with people of other religions, how to talk to people of other religions, uh, to give you a little bit of background here. Uh my wife and I, during the uh 2020 era, uh, went to the playground because that's about the only place we could take our kids. And uh and we met another couple at the playground. Really, really nice people. And uh my wife and and the the other mom, they they hit it off really good, and our daughters hit it off really good. Um and me and the dad, we we became friends too. Um, and they are Mormon. They're LDS, Latter-day Saints. And we knew that, and they knew that we were, you know, Christian. And uh it never it didn't come up too often in conversation until uh one day my wife was talking to um the other gal, and they said, you know, we should do a Bible study. And uh so we said, yep, let's do it. So we put one on the calendar and we got together and we had a genuine Bible study um where uh we discussed where they're coming from uh with their their beliefs and their faith and uh and also where we're coming from, and and we looked at biblical passages and some other um some other other evidences, and it was a uh very eye-opening experience. And there is a lot that I learned from it. Um, and I think that there's a lot that uh that I have to share or that we have to share that might be valuable for uh for you if if you ever uh get into a situation where you're discussing, you know, different religions with with people who believe those different religions. So today that's what we're gonna talk about. Um, specifically how to talk with um Latter-day Saints or or Mormons um about some of the things that that they believe.

Jon 2:08

What came of those uh conversations with Mormons and what worked and what didn't?

Nate 2:12

And so we have an ongoing conversation. We agreed with them that we would read the Book of Mormon, and they agreed with us that they would consider some of the points that we made as if the Book of Mormon were not proven to be true.

Jon 2:24

This is an interesting conversation because I grew up, went to high school with probably like probably 50% Mormon. Yeah. So all my high school friends were all Mormon. Yeah. Kyle, you preached in Kaysville, Utah. There were no Mormons there at all. Well, and I was a band geek in high school. There's lots of Mormons and the Romans there. So I feel like I growing up kind of held uh a number of families I knew that were Mormon in high regard. Like they they they seem to be really um They're very family-oriented. Very family-oriented. They they seem to be really spiritually minded, they seem to be very dedicated. They go maybe they would do early morning seminary, they would do things um a lot more often than I did growing up. And I just kind of attributed that towards a lot more zeal towards the gospel. I know it's their culture, and I know it's the it's the whole thing, right? It's a whole package deal. But I don't know, I always kind of grew up with a kind of a high um high feeling towards them and and especially the the friends and stuff. Super kind, super nice um doctrinally, couldn't be further from you know how how wide focused and raised, but I feel like they're very open, as opposed to maybe other religions, they're very open to having a conversation with you.

Nate 3:37

They want to.

Jon 3:38

And it it's just how far down that conversation are they willing to have, and to what extent will they stop you? You know, like where what will they actually explore with you and what will they not? You know, as far as getting into their doctrine and challenging things. So I'm curious as to where you've had those successes talking to people, both of you, where you've had some success and where you've had some struggles and what your approach was in those conversations.

Continuing Revelation And The Inner Witness

Nate 4:07

Well, I think I don't have a ton of experience talking with uh Latter-day Saints, Mormons about their faith. This was really the first in-depth conversation I'd ever had, and it was so eye-opening about what they what they believe. Um, and there are some ideas that I think it's important for us to understand about what they believe so that we we can have uh more influential conversations with them. So, so for instance, they they don't believe that the Book of Mormon is, and I'm putting air quotes around this, adding to God's word. They believe that this is just a continuing of of God's word. And they believe that that Joseph Smith, who's one of their founding or their founding member, um apostle. Yeah, they believe that Joseph Smith is restoring the church uh back to what it should be, and therefore, you know, this Book of Mormon that was revealed to him uh is that restoration. And they also believe in continuing revelation, and that was very foreign to me. I had always looked at the Bible as the complete word of God, and they don't believe that it is. So so there's an area that that we had to reconcile. And then the the the third thing that uh really stood out to me about what they believed is uh this couple referred to it as their witness. Uh their witness was this I I don't really know what it is. They would probably explain it much better than I can, but like a feeling that they had in their heart that they prayed about the Book of Mormon and the LDS theology, and they they now know that it is true. And in fact, I I started reading the Book of Mormon, and on one of the first pages it says, if you want to know if these things are true, pray about it, and it will be revealed to you that this is true. And again, that was foreign to me because I've always been taught that there is evidence for our beliefs, and and that's the reason that we believe, because there is evidence to support it. And so this was foreign to me that the only evidence was internal and you know, feelings-based. So those were some of the things that really stood out to me and made me understand that um if we're oranges, then they're apples, and we have to reconcile some of those differences before we can even really begin to discuss um any sort of agreement about what is true.

Common Words Different Meanings

Jon 6:52

So where and and maybe Kyle, you since you've done a lot more probably study than both of us on this, is where do we align? What what kinds of things do we align on? Where we're if there's a Venn diagram there where we overlap and where we agree on things, what what what foundation do we have?

Kyle 7:11

Well, and and that's the that's the really tricky part about these kinds of conversations is that we on on one level, on a surface level, in the way they would present it, we have quite a bit in common. Um, you know, they're the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but you know, church of church of Christ, you know, right there in the name, we share a lot of commonality. Um that they would look at Jesus as their savior, they would acknowledge his death as significance as far as uh our atonement is concerned. Um we're baptized um in in Christ, and that's what they teach. And uh and and they, in fact, I I can't verify this, but I've heard it said that they are uh I can comfortably say they're at least one of the world's biggest distributors of the Bible. And so they love to promote the Bible as something, you know, a starting point that we have in common. So all those things on the surface. But when you just look a little bit closer and scrutinize just a little bit, I mean the the reality is we really don't have much in common at all. Um, because their view of Jesus is so distorted from our perspective and and from scriptures.

Jon 8:30

But from the outside world, it probably does look like we have a lot more in common.

Kyle 8:34

Oh, because they don't understand the doctrine of Roman government governors and officials uh in the book of Acts that just I don't know the difference between you people, it just all sounds like it sounds like a uh an Israelite problem, and you guys are just quarreling over your own like it made no sense to them, and I think to most of the world, um, that that's probably what they're talking about. You know, one I I would say just like one simple example would be uh that there's there's some revision happening, like in the book of Moses, in the book of Mormon, uh it it says here to Adam and Eve, this is the gospel preached to Adam and Eve, um, God hath made it known unto our fathers. This is Moses chapter six, verse fifty, made it known unto our fathers that all men must repent. And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying, I am God, I made the world and men before they were in the flesh. And he also said unto him, If thou wilt turn unto me and hearken unto my voice, and believe and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized even in water, in the name of mine only begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, whatsoever ye ask, it shall be given to you. That's Acts 412 and 238 combined.

Jon 9:57

Exactly. But in a revisionist history, and spoken from Moses.

Can We Add To God’s Word

Kyle 10:05

That's an accounting of of what God said to Adam, apparently. So so they would argue that people have been baptized. So they would say we have baptism. That's just my point, though. They would point out that we have baptism in Jesus' name in common, and on the surface, yes, but also when when they talk about it is going all the way back to something that Adam observed. And we see passages like Ephesians five, or sorry, Ephesians three and verse three, which says, How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery, as I have briefly written already, by which when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Holy Spirit to his apostles and prophets. So the the New Testament authors would talk about the idea of a mystery and things being revealed through Jesus and in the New Testament, or culminating in, say, 1 Peter chapter 1 and verse 10, of this salvation, the prophets who have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searched what uh searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ who is in them was indicating when he testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow, to them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us they were ministering, things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things which angels desire to look into. So the prophets of the Old Testament knew they were looking ahead to a future salvation, a a redeemer, a great Messiah, uh a coming king and a kingdom. They didn't understand the the when and where and how and who of it all. Yeah. Not even angels fully understood that till it was revealed. Sure. So that's just one example where their their gospel, while it has some of those surface-level similarities, really is actually very different uh in how it's presented in their book. Now, this boils down to I think the chief issue here uh is can we trust the Bible? And their answer is, well, insofar as it's translated accurately. Right.

Nate 12:16

Which I think is silly because isn't that the assumption that everybody who comes to the Bible has or should have? I shouldn't believe it if it's not translated accurately.

Jon 12:27

I should only believe what's translated accurately. And then if the Book of Mormon is a continuing revelation of that and does not counter it but fulfills it in more ways, then it should have no contradiction, which pal, you just kind of showed a big one.

Kyle 12:43

Well, that that's something else is is I've had in some of my conversations, some of the common points that are brought up would be the idea of continuing revelation, as Nate mentioned, is one of the key features of the Mormon church. Uh and and that they point out that in the Bible it's consistent with the Bible. Again, they like to use the Bible when it is supportive of their arguments, sure. And so they don't reject the Bible only when it seems to be uh less convenient for their doctrine.

Jon 13:13

What do they say about 2 Timothy 3? I brought that up.

Nate 13:17

Yeah, is that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching for correctly for training and righteousness at the man of God maybe adequate equip for every good work. So so I think the point that they made is well, when Paul wrote that, was all of the Bible written yet? So if up in if he's just referring to the scriptures up until that point that had been written, then whatever had been written after that should not be considered like you know inspired. And realistically, like if we're gonna be intellectually honest, what scripture is Paul referring to? It's highly likely that he is referring to the old testament.

Kyle 14:02

Yeah, that would be when he uses when the New Testament writers talk about scripture.

Nate 14:07

That's the that's the point that you're coming at, John, but but these are the specifics.

Jon 14:12

And that's good that we're we you know, we gotta be careful falling into the cherry-picking trap ourselves.

Nate 14:17

You know, at least that's the and I got in trouble with that because I said the book of Mormon seems to me to be an addition to the scripture. And if you go to Revelation 18, or excuse me, Revelation 22, verse 18, I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. And so I said to him, See, if you add to the Bible, or if you take from the Bible, uh there are consequences for that, uh, to which he responded, Well, isn't John just referring to the book that he wrote, i.e., Revelation? And upon closer observation, I believe my friend is absolutely right that this particular passage, Revelation 22, 18 through 18 and 19, John really is just referring to the book of Revelation. But I believe that that is built on a bigger principle, which is do not add to what God says.

Kyle 15:34

Well, and that gets back to my underlying issue with I I I can't I can't agree with that logic that they would say that having ongoing uh and continuing revelation and a a prophet in the church is consistent with the with the pattern in the Bible because you had Moses, but then you had Elijah and Elisha, then Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, all the minor prophets, there was a continuation of prophets in the Old Testament. Well, for one, there wasn't always between Malachi and Matthew, there's 400 years where God was silent. And just because our Bible goes from one prophet to another doesn't mean that that covers every moment in time. So that doesn't, the Bible doesn't imply that there always had to be a prophet, and sometimes there were multiple prophets overlapping with each other. Uh Ezekiel and Daniel and Jeremiah all overlap, but at different points on the map. Daniel's in the in the capital city of Susa, and uh I better fact-check that. He's in the capital city of the Babylonian Empire. Yeah, yeah. And Ezekiel is with the captives at the river Kibar, and Jeremiah is back in Jerusalem. And so, yeah, they they were preaching to different audiences and maybe slightly, but they overlapped at different points in time. Uh, but also the main point is Moses delivered a law to Israel, and not one prophet after him added anything to it, as far as law is concerned, or took away any decree that God had made. Uh-huh. And that is something that you have seen historically throughout the history of the Mormon church, is there has been some major reversals, and you know, the obvious uh low-hanging fruit would be like polygamy, or um, some of their perspectives on the different skin colors and and uh being able to serve as a priest if you're uh a black person. And so sure. Um, those have been some major changes uh of direction, and that's something you never see in the Old Testament is Moses gave a law, and every prophet after him simply communicated warnings about get back to the law that I gave to you hundreds of years ago and haven't changed, or else here's the consequence that's coming.

Nate 17:45

And so what you're describing there, I think Paul kind of summarizes in Galatians chapter one, uh, when he says in verse six, I'll read verses six through nine. And this is where I went with with my friend who's who's a Mormon. Galatians one, six through nine. I'm astonished that you're so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel. Not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and who want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you, let him be accursed, as we've said before. So now I say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. And so I brought that up with my Mormon friend. And he said, Well, this referring to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon is not contrary to the Bible. And so I said, um, okay, well, I don't really know the Book of Mormon, so I can't point to specific passages where it is contradictory. And the point that I had just made, which was you can't add to or take from uh from Revelation, he had said, Well, yeah, but that's specifically referring to the book of Revelation. So now I'm stuck with this idea of, okay, how do we talk about the Book of Mormon as adding to God's word, or rather as contrary to God's word?

Marriage After Death And Baptism

Kyle 19:06

Aaron Powell Well, that's where I see some of those fundamental differences would be like the timeline of when the gospel and baptism in Jesus is laid out, and that's just fundamentally different, that it goes all the way back to Adam. So it's to me, it's not the same gospel.

Nate 19:22

So so that's what I brought up with him. I said, you know, I understand that the Mormon faith or the uh LDS teaching suggests that after we die we'll be married. And he said, Yes, that's absolutely true. And this is where I learned something else new. Um I said, Well, where does it say that in the Book of Mormon? He said, It actually doesn't teach that in the Book of Mormon. Here's here's what I learned. They have three or maybe even four texts that they reveal revere as inspired. The Bible, so long as it's translated correctly, the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and then the Pearl of Great Price. And we didn't discuss that one, but that one's that's one that I've read is is part of their their canon. And so in Doctrines and Covenants, it teaches this. I believe that's where it teaches the idea that after death we get married. So I said, okay, well, let's talk about Matthew 22. So we went over to Matthew 22 because this is where Jesus is talking to the Sadducees who don't believe there is a resurrection after death. And they go through this whole elaborate uh hypothetical situation. Uh, man marries a woman and then the man dies, and then the brother marries the woman, and then that brother dies, and I think it goes seven so and so, and so on and so on, seven brothers. Whose whose uh wife will she be in the resurrection? And Jesus says, You don't understand the scriptures or the power of God, because after death they neither marry or uh are given in marriage. I'm paraphrasing there. And when I shared that with him, he was taken aback. He looked at it almost as though he had never read it before, and then he read it again. And in his Mormon approved Bible, it had a footnote at the bottom that was see doctrines and covenants, and it gave the you know the passages and the doctrines and covenants that he was supposed to look at. But this was very interesting to me because it showed that he valued the um other teachings perhaps even a little bit more than the Bible. And and this particular passage, he wasn't well studied on the Bible there.

Jon 21:37

Um I also think of that as we talk about life and death and stuff. One of the other things that they've done or believed in that kind of felt like an easy one to address was the baptizing for the dead. And there's so many scriptures that talk about um judgment happening at death, yeah, that the idea of and it's not. That like I can I can baptize by baptizing someone right now, I can baptize someone that passed away and they're saved. It's that they'll have an opportunity in judgment or or after in the afterlife to choose that. And it just goes counter to most of the whole purpose of living a certain life here on earth the correct and right way. Like, what is then the point to avoid sin today if my loved one can just give me an opportunity later on in death? And why don't we just have a real cool, you know, chain of baptisms? Yeah, do whatever I want here, right? And then after death, then I'll get baptized. And I think there was this, it was kind of a humorous story about how they got sued and got a lot in trouble for baptizing the Holocaust victims. Oh. Primarily because none of those people believed in Jesus. It's sure. Like the there was kind of an uprising of those the Jewish people. I think it was the World Jewish Congress. It was in 1995. It they they had an agreement, they settled on that, it looks like. Um, but it what didn't necessarily stop because they relied on people submitting forth ancestry names of their relatives and stuff. And so some of those names were continually submitted, you know, by people. But yeah, that that was an actual situation, I think, that was really in conflict with other other religions and other doctrines out there and just kind of big headlines in the 90s. That always felt like one that was if if if that was believed upon in maybe in one of the other doctrines, that's that's another one. It's really kind of hard to justify because judgment and the idea of afterlife is it's still vague, but what we know of it does not yeah, does not align to that, you know.

Nate 23:44

That idea that um you could be baptized for the dead kind of flies in the faith face of Luke chapter, or excuse me, yeah, Luke 16, you know, verses 19 through 31 with with the rich man and Lazarus, where he talks about, you know, a chasm between the fiery place and the comfortable place being being fixed. Um there is a passage in the New Testament that references baptism for the dead. Yeah. And I've I'll be honest, I've never fully understood that. I don't, um, I haven't researched it. So I didn't want to go in depth on that one.

Jon 24:20

I think their perspective is that Luke 15, 29, it it Paul references the practice in the actual verses. Otherwise, what do people mean about being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? I mean, it actually questions the idea of that practice. Oh, okay. You know, in the in the verses. And so I see that's not the way that you with your hermeneutics and everything that you read the Bible, you don't you don't come across something that seems to be vague or under not understood. Yeah. And you take it as now a leading point of doctrine over all the harmony verses that we it would it would count against. Like everything that we do know, one thing I find here doesn't counter everything I've already known. And so you'd have to then figure out like, well, why is this in here and how does this harmonize with the other passages, especially if it's not explicit, and I don't think that verse really is things like that that just don't harmonize with all the other information we know of in the gospels. And I think that's one of the difficulties of really understanding how to address it, because it feels like if you have very little you have in common, then where do you start? Where do you start those conversations? Because it's like I agree to disagree right off the bat, you know?

Reverse The Burden Of Proof

Nate 25:31

Yeah. So uh one of the passages that we discussed, because they believe in ongoing revelation to their uh prophets or apostles or both. Uh one of the one of the passages that we discussed was Hebrews chapter one, verses one and two. Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. So I use that point to say we no longer have prophets currently to guide us, because God's message was given through the prophets and ended with Jesus, or it was completed with Jesus. And so we have no need for additional prophets to bring us additional revelation. The revelation has been of God's complete word, is complete. And there are some other passages that back this idea up. Jude 3 is one of those passages. Jude verse 3. Jude says, Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. The faith was delivered once, and it was delivered, delivered as in past tense, not uh present or future to the saints. It wasn't delivered multiple times, as in like Jesus came, and then more revelation was added to what God had already revealed. It was delivered once for all to the saints. Um, and so we discussed that and uh they just didn't agree with that assessment of of the scriptures. And so here is really where I came to we came to a difficult point in the conversation, which was they have their internal witness, their belief that if they have prayed about it, that is the Book of Mormon, and their theology, and that it has been revealed to them through that prayer, i.e., given their witness, that it is true, then any biblical passages are either one, put under scrutiny because they are quote not interpreted correctly, or two, they just shape their beliefs about these Bible passages around what they already believe from from scripture.

Kyle 28:00

That's the really complicated part. When people talk to me about my experiences living in Salt Lake City and and working with a church there, and uh, we had a good number of of people that grew up LDS but were um, as I would say, converted to Christ uh and the simplicity of the of the gospel in the Bible. Um and people ask me, How did you do that? How did you guys find that kind of success there? Said, well, the the reality is there's not sometimes all you can do is is just make your best effort at um standing up for scripture, um reverse the burden of proof. So when they make a claim like the Bible's been mistranslated, I would say, well, what leads you to that conclusion? What evidence? Put it on yeah, that um and you know I'm always ready with like codexcinaticus.org. You can have a PDF of a 1600-year-old complete New Testament and say, this is pretty convincing evidence to me that within a within a couple generations of these events, there is a and not to say that there aren't older uh individual books or older fragments that go even closer to the events of the of the New Testament. I'm just talking a complete all 27 books, New Testament. You have a PDF of that manuscript right there on your phone, you can show them.

Nate 29:20

And they have no gold plates to show you. Yeah, yeah. Well, that was one of the things that they said was, well, man has tampered with the translations of scripture. And I said, Well, we can go back to, and you referenced it more eloquently than I did. We can go back to the original language and see what was written. And that has very little of uh deviation deviation, man potentially misinterpreting it from what it originally says, because that's what it originally says.

Kyle 29:52

Well, and and if they give you a uh they've got some talking points too. If they talk about, well, there's over there's over 10,000 discrepancies between all the biblical manuscripts and say, share a few examples. I'd like to see that.

Jon 30:03

Yeah.

Kyle 30:04

They probably won't have anything to show you. And and the reason is it just means that uh you have 5,000 uh you know of the of the later manuscripts, the the um what what we would call the uh minuscules and uh the Byzantine type texts, and we have you know thousands of those. And you know, if if uh codex A has Ephesians 5, verse 15, and it'll miss this certain word, that's a discrepancy. But we've got 4,000 others that all say it the same way. Right. Okay, well, that's probably the scribe's mistake. Well, and then you know, codex B over here has Matthew chapter 21, verse 17, and it adds this phrase to it, but the other 4,000 don't add that phrase. That's the so and you just go through and like you know, one mistake, well, quote unquote mistake after another adds up to thousands of discrepancies, and actually that's probably the greatest support you can give in favor of defending the Bible is is that the fact that we have thousands of manuscripts and comparing the discrepancies helps us pretty decisively know scribes aren't perfect, but they're fairly dependable, but helps us weed out the obvious mistakes when when just a single manuscript has an error or or something different, or a handful of them have an omission, or a lot of times it's geographically, and you can just say, well, the overwhelming majority, and that gives you a very, very dependable consensus on the translation. So the the point I was trying to make though is is we could talk for hours about all kinds of things about the character of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, and and there's a lot of there's a lot of uh fodder for discussion there. Uh we could talk about some of the darker chapters of their history, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and things like that that are just uh stories that they'd rather have buried. We could talk about some of the discrepancies in the Book of Mormon, the mention of horses before the Spanish introduced them to North America, the um the iron and bronze work that was done.

Nate 32:14

There's there's a lack of archaeological evidence to support some of the claims about North American uh civilization.

Kyle 32:21

Um Yeah, and and then uh there's a lot of questions about the translation process and the kind of wording used. Uh there's some disc actual discrepancies there um from one version to another. Uh so there's all kinds of ways we could pick at um the Book of Mormon. But I think it's just important to be able to hold your ground on some very important things and to reverse the burden of proof when it is in your interest to do so. Hold them, hold them accountable for claims they make. Um, but when when people ask me, how did we have success in in reaching through, I said, well, a lot of the times it was you could point all those hundreds of little things out, but when the answer is pray and and you'll get a reassuring feeling, there's no reasoning with that. Yeah. So the success we had was with people that could see through that, that could see some of the obvious discrepancies and acronisms and uh just moral darkness in some of their history and and question it. And then that's really easy to kind of guide someone through instead of multiple books or sources of authority, we have a singular text, and when somebody's ready to that point, and and my my final response would just be that when when the answer is you pray and and uh trust the feeling you get. Um you know that that goes against Galatians chapter one, whether we are an angel, and not to say that that actually happens, but it's interesting that Paul would use that exact phrase. Even if an angel came to you and proclaimed a gospel to you, if it's different, and that's why I go out of my way to point out things like baptism and uh for Adam and Eve, that's a different gospel. Uh Jesus and Satan being brothers, that's that's a different gospel. Jesus only being God's son, but not being the fullness of deity, that's a different gospel.

Nate 34:17

Yeah.

When Prayer Replaces Evidence

Kyle 34:18

So even if an angel preaches a dis different gospel, no matter how convincing that vision or revelation might be, and I'm not necessarily saying an angel actually talked to Joseph Smith, um, I have a different theory on it. But um, even if that were the case, it deviates from the gospel that we have. And and so one of my favorite stories is 1 Kings chapter 22. Um, Ahab wanted to join up with Jehoshaphat. So even though uh they didn't always get along, Ahab wanted to have Jehoshaphat take his military and join up with him and fight against Syria. And so Jehoshaphat, being a not horrible king, Ahab was, uh said, we should consult a prophet. So Ahab brings in all his prophets and they all you know march around. One guy gets out a pair of bronze bullhorns and acts out and says, This is how you're gonna crush your enemies, God guarantees it. And Jehoshaphat says, Can we listen to a real prophet? And Ahab's like, There's this one guy, Micaiah, but he always says horrible things about me. I hate him. Jehoshaphat insists, so they bring in Micaiah, and Micaiah says, No, by all means, go up and fight the Syrians. God says you'll win. And Ahab's like, Micaiah, tell the truth. Okay. Uh I see Israel scattered on the mountain like sheep that have no shepherd. And the Lord said, These have these have no master, let each return to his house in peace. And Ahab's like, See, I told you this guy only says bad things. And Micaiah says, uh, in in 1 Kings chapter 22, he says, Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on his throne and all the host of heaven standing by on his right hand and on his left hand. And the Lord said, Who will persuade Ahab to go up that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead? So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, I will persuade him. And the Lord said to him, In what way? So he said, I'll go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, You shall persuade him and also prevail, go out and do so. Therefore look, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has dis has declared disaster against you. Now, the point is that Ahab had plenty of chances to listen to the voice of God, and it was clear at this point he was not going to listen to God, and God said, It's time for Ahab to die. How are we gonna do this? Well, you know, send a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. Saying a story like that should make you really question when something goes against God's revealed word, it it should be disregarded.

Three Tips For Better Talks

Nate 36:50

Yeah. Amen. No, Ahab. That was the Ahab. Oh yeah. Ahab. So um I want to kind of wrap this up here and uh and share a few practical tips, I think, for for those of us who uh will be having conversations at some point or might be having conversations with some point at someone of the Mormon faith. And I think these are really honestly good points for having conversations with anybody of any uh religious background. And the first one, and Kyle alluded to this a moment ago, is you know, we don't have to be perfect in what we share. We don't have to be 100% knowledgeable about every single little detail um uh in the Bible or about their faith. But here's what we want to do we want to give them something to to think about. We want to put a pebble in their shoe that they cannot ignore. And so um the the passage that I think about when I think about this is First Corinthians chapter three, verses six through eight. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. We are planting a seed. We don't have to quote win the argument or the conversation in that first discussion. Let's just plant a seed that somebody else uh is going to water it. Or maybe we get the chance to water it later. The second thing I learned in this encounter is be honest with yourself and detailed in your understanding of God's word. And this 2 Timothy 2, chapter 15 says, Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. We have to read, think about, study, and know God's word well if we are going to have an intelligent discussion with somebody else who knows a thing or two about the Bible, but has different religious views. And so we really need to be prepared and understand what the scriptures teach and what they say. And the third thing, and and this is where I think I I fall down, I get pretty fired up in these conversations. But in 1 Peter chapter 3, verse 15, Peter gives the direction in your heart's honor, Christ the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. And so anybody you're discussing these things with religious matters who disagrees with you, we want to do that with gentleness and respect. Uh, and that's that's not easy to do. But I think those are three things that we can take with us, regardless of who we're discussing. Number one, we don't have to be perfect, but we want to give them something to think about, a pebble in their shoe. Number two, we want to be honest and detailed in our understanding of God's word, knowing it so that we can rightly divide it, so that we can use it honestly and truthfully. And three, we want to be gentle and respectful of those who see things differently than we do when we bring God's word to them. And I think if we do those things, we will be more influential than if we don't.

Kyle 40:15

Well, thank you for listening to this most recent episode of the Exhorter Podcast. Uh, what what's our what's our tagline again? You might not you might not like you might not like us, but you might not love us, but please like us.

Nate 40:30

Yeah, there you go. And subscribe.

Wrap-Up And How To Reach Us

Kyle 40:32

But thanks for listening. And uh if you have more questions about this, reach out to us through our social media, look us up as the Exhorter Podcast. And if you have more questions, we'd we'd love to give you more information to uh kind of help you understand uh how to how to approach these questions, how to approach these conversations a little bit better. We've all been in these situations, and whether it's our LDS neighbors or any anyone of a similar or different faith, we we need to know how to be able to explain the gospel, explain our faith in the gospel, be able to give uh an explanation for our confidence in the Bible that we read and proclaim. And so it's been a very uh helpful and and uh uh apt lesson for this time. Thank you, Nate. And thank you guys for listening. Please tune in each and every single week without exception for new episodes. See you next time.

Jon 41:24

Yeah, we've been every single three to six weeks. Yeah, when I post them. Probably won't lead us out. Um, I did the intro. Oh, I did the intro. I did the leadout last. You were doing number two. All right, all right. You would do this intro well. I mean, the this outro. This outro is in your wheelhouse. Yeah.

Kyle 41:50

Well, who's there? It's the Exhorter Podcast. Would you like to hear about the gospel?

Nate 41:59

I like it!

Kyle 41:59

Are you trying something new? I like it. Oh no, it says uh, you know, the knocking on the door. We should do an episode about the halftime shows and be like, uh, can we just both agree they were both like trash? I don't need Kid Rock to preach Jesus. In fact, I'd prefer if he did if he didn't.