83 - We All Should Be Preparing for Eldership

What if the path to stronger churches begins long before anyone is asked to serve? We dig into the surprising power of aspiration—how aiming toward the biblical qualities of an elder can shape every believer’s character, whether the title ever comes or not. Is aspiring to be an elder only for a few? We argue it’s a vision for everyone.

"If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task" (1 Tim 3:1). This episode reframes “elder qualifications” as a roadmap for every disciple. We walk through 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, press into the hard questions (What if I’ve blown it? What if my time is too tight? What if I never become an elder?), and get practical about training hospitality and integrity at home—long before anyone is nominated.

Scripture references: 1 Timothy 3:1–7; Titus 1:5–9; Romans 8:28; 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 12; 2 Samuel 11; Ephesians 4.

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Transcript

Jon: 0:05

Welcome to the Exorder Podcast, where aimed to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. Some name to conversation depends on who does the intro. Um, Kyle, you are leading us in uh to the discussion today. What are we gonna talk about?

Kyle: 0:24

Well, I had an idea, but I I I think I'd rather just talk about what's on my heart. I really want to talk about the neutron movie right now.

Nate: 0:31

Okay, well. I haven't seen it. Yeah, that might not appeal to and we're gonna spoil it for that might not be everyone else who hasn't seen it. That might not appeal to our audience.

Kyle: 0:42

So instead, let's talk about aspiring to the office of overseer. Okay. How are you preparing to be an elder? That's really the question I the central question I want to focus on today. Uh and there's two main texts that we might bounce back and forth between, and you you might not be surprised to learn that it's 1 Timothy chapter 3 or Titus chapter 1. Those are the main scriptures that deal with elders. And by the way, um don't turn off this podcast quite yet. I mean, give it at least five minutes, and if you want to turn it off, then fair enough. You know, we're not everybody's cup of tea, I get it. But g give us at least five minutes. Like, try to see this through to the end of the episode. And I uh this isn't just for like a certain percentage of men only. I think there's going to be broad appeal for everybody. I think everyone's gonna get something out of this episode. But yes, it is prefaced with this idea of in 1 Timothy chapter 3, um, let's see, Paul says, it is a faithful saying, if a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. Where other translations, I think the New American Standard says, if he aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a good work. So some of the key terms there are aspiration and desire. And when I think about that idea of aspiring for something or desiring a position, um, that tells me that becoming an elder isn't something that just simply happens one day. You you turn 55 and now I'm old enough, and I guess, oh, well, I guess I guess I'm an elder. It sounds like something that you like a goal that you work towards. You think about a kid. What did you guys aspire to be when you were kids? My aspiration was to live in a junkyard and invent stuff. Like for reels, that's what I told my parents.

Jon: 2:34

Did you because you watched the Rescue Ranger?

Kyle: 2:36

Yeah.

Jon: 2:37

Yeah. Yeah. Kind of did a lot of thirsty.

Nate: 2:42

Oh well, yeah, yeah. The dog lived in a kind of a junkyard. A yard that was junky.

Jon: 2:48

Aspirations. Uh, I mean, for careers and stuff, I always wanted to be things that I found out that I was not able to do, like be a police officer or military and fly planes or stuff like that. Because my colorblindness and eyes and stuff like immediately nixed that. So that was kind of depressing. Yeah, you bring up an interesting point.

Kyle: 3:09

And then you learned it's really your superpower.

Nate: 3:12

Sure, that's a yeah, other wavelengths, the gray ones. The gray ones. Um, if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Yeah, so there's not everyone is uh gonna want to be an LR. You know, it's a hey, do you want to do this thing? Doesn't say there's anything wrong with not wanting to do that thing.

Kyle: 3:34

Well, that's another question right there. I wonder if you ask the seven men who serve as as shepherds, and I'm gonna use those terms interchangeably, by the way, if you're listening, uh pastor, which is the same as shepherd. So I I like the word shepherd, and that's my favorite term to describe them because it really I think gets to the heart of the job and the nature of the work more than any other. But overseer or bishop is another term, elder. So I'm gonna use those terms interchangeably on this episode, and um that that's a question. Um, if if you're still wondering about that, we'll we could address that some other way, or you could reach out and message us. But so just so you're clear, I'm gonna use those somewhat interchangeably.

Nate: 4:14

So that we can wrangle about words.

Kyle: 4:16

Yeah. Yeah. But I would wonder about the seven men who serve here. If you did a poll, how many of them at our age, at 20, at 30, at 40, you know, at those different stages in their life, how many of them would have said that they aspired? And the answers might vary that at different points in their life, maybe it wasn't on their radar. So I I think it's fair that not everyone is going to say they aspire, but is that just how you feel right now? And so there's the the mass appeal for this, and I'm gonna I'm gonna come back to this at the end of the episode, but here's the hook to keep you keep you listening. If you're if you're already starting to tune out, like, well, you know, elders, that that's a man thing, and I'm not a man for the uh 5% of our audience that are women. Um or maybe um if you're like in that percentage of men that's that at this point in your life, well, it's not for me, or something like that. Here's the hook. When we read through this text in just a minute, I want you to really think some of the high points here that are described, you might say, and I I think Nate, you're right, it isn't something that you must aspire to, but I would also challenge you to think do you really want to say maybe not the office or or work this associate? But what about these qualifications? Yeah, yeah. Having a solid marriage, having faithful children, practicing self-control, being highly regarded in and outside of the church, are those things you really aren't interested in? So I think this stands man, woman, young, old, whether you feel at this moment in your life you have an interest in being an elder someday or not. I feel like this text holds an appeal to everybody as not defining some separate standard of, well, if you want to be an elder, you can hold yourself to a higher standard, and here's what it is in 1 Timothy 3. I think this is saying, here's here's a man that has practiced his faith, and here's what that looks like being above reproach. And I think we all should aspire to that. Whether, whether being an uh an elder, serving it as an elder in the church comes to fruition or not.

Nate: 6:32

Yeah, it seems like a lot of the characteristics, uh, above reproach, husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, all of those characteristics, it's almost like an elder is just um further along in his game, so to speak. Um practiced. Yeah, well, well practiced in those things.

Jon: 6:53

And and um But there are some that are you will based upon where you find yourself in life further down the line, that will just disqualify you too. So when you were talking and leading into this one, my first thought is like, well, how many what's the data? You know me, empirical data. Well, what what's the data? How many would actually be qualified? Like statistically on the whole, how many would actually be qualified for it? 20%. It's closer to like five. Oh. Like, like if you're being very lenient, six percent like because of just the amount of age, the age brackets, the amount of men, the the just just just those franklines. But here's the thing is all young men at the age of 12 to 7, 18, 100 because they haven't lived a life yet, like they haven't started off in that mode. And so statistically, the younger men have you might have the qualifications and or the meant mental aptitude, the desire to aspire to that. And so I do think it's kind of one of these, it's an interesting thing. Once you've started off in your life, you you know whether you've aspired to it early enough. I think this is a cause for understanding this aspiration and the desire to train men early to focus and look at being maybe qualified or serving as elders in the future because more they're more qualified when they're younger for that future than they are later down the line. Does that make sense?

Kyle: 8:32

Well, that's kind of the point I'm trying to make with this episode is that the idea, the language here of desire and aspiration, that implies there's some working towards it as if it were a goal. It's not a passive achievement uh or or something that just happens when you turn a certain age. Right. It's a good idea. It is the result of it. It is the result of dedicated effort and focused direction in your life. So I think there is some movement towards that objective that that needs to take place throughout your life, whether whether you think that is realistic or not about you in the future, I still think it's the standard we should all aspire to.

Jon: 9:11

Does that seem crazy though? Did you have a question about that? Like when they're young, like James right now, he might aspire to become an elder one day. And there's really no reason why you think he couldn't. Well, if he aspires it right now.

Nate: 9:24

What you're saying is he hasn't disqualified himself.

Jon: 9:26

He hasn't disqualified himself. He hasn't lived a life that might disqualify him. He has all the opportunity. If you think about it as into maybe opportunity too, he has 100% of the opportunity at that point. But further down the line, people in their 40s to 70s, you know, just the long stretch, by that point in time in their life, you may the narrowing of their qualification will be just a small more significant. Yeah. And so you have more control over that the younger you do. Why is this a good conversation to have? Because we don't think preemptively. We we don't generally think we plan ahead for this kind of thing. We may encourage them to want to do that someday, but even deacons sometimes, so we don't have a conversation of like which deacons might aspire to become elders one day, and or which young men that are 20 and might do that one day. And I don't know that I've had a lot of conversations about that with older people in my life. Hey, do you would you like to be an elder one day? What do you think you're gonna have to do in the life you're gonna have to live to be qualified? And or to be a good leader, a good shepherd for that, or to desire the work and do it well. What do you think you might have to do? And I think that it's a good conversation to have because it's you have to do it with intent.

Kyle: 10:40

You want to raise your son. Well, your sons, you have two sons. We talk about James, he gets picked on a lot in this podcast because he's he's older of age. Yeah, yeah. So he's fair game. Um, but you you want to raise your sons as if they would be elders someday, though you're not going to make that choice for them, and it's up to a congregation. That's that's again another bigger question that we probably won't cover today is it's it's let's see, how do I word this? It's a objective standard, but whether someone is qualified is a subjective conclusion based on the church's opinion.

Jon: 11:15

And and just because you have the desire to and you've met in your mind and an assessment, met qualifications for that, does that doesn't mean that we you you might have plenty of elders in the congregation, but that doesn't mean that you couldn't move and be an elder somewhere else someday. Like there's there's all these other factors to it where where you live, the congregation, um, whether you have enough men to be that. Yeah.

Kyle: 11:39

Or going to the first Corinthians 12 uh metaphor of the body, there are lots of members, one body. Being an elder just might not be in the cards for you. I still think it's what you aspire to. Yeah. And whether it plays out that way or not, you find your role in the body, you serve your function. And if aspiring to the office of elder is how you direct your steps, and if that doesn't work out, then at least you've directed your steps in a in a very positive direction and you've been equipping yourself, you can still be useful in so many other capacities. So, like with your son James, a qualification that you read, Nate, was hospitable. How can you prepare him to be hospitable? He doesn't own a home right now, but how can you maybe set him on the path of being a hospitable person when he grows up? Can you, are there things you can do now towards that end? When guests come over to your house, it's the whole family. We have guests. It's not just mom and I. That could be something like with my girls, we make them talk to three people at church and not the same three people every time, and not three people that they know. Preferably when we have visitors, you're gonna go up and talk to them, you're gonna introduce yourself, you're gonna ask them their name, and you're gonna ask them one or two more questions, and then you can go play with your friends because I'm trying to teach them to be hospitable. That this church, we have guests, and I want you to make them feel welcome. I'm trying to get them to buy in now so that when they're older, they are inclined to be hospitable. When we have guests at the home, I want them to come out of their room and say hello when guests enter. I want them to get accustomed to being hospitable now. So those are ways where as parents, we can think even with young children, whether this happens or not, it's not my choice. But I want to direct them down a path where it doesn't preclude serving in that way.

Jon: 13:33

I like this conversation because I feel like we always have, we don't have these conversations uh about goal planning and and the intent of the future, especially when we think about kids or younger people in general. But even then, I think we're gonna talk about ourselves is you know, we're not super old yet. Um, and different aspirations, you know, we all should have.

Kyle: 13:55

I've referenced 1 Timothy chapter 3 because I like the introduction uh where it talks about uh aspiring to the office of overseer. But I want to jump over to Titus. Let me read this so that we at least um as as our audience has a basis for what we're discussing. Uh Titus chapter 1, beginning in verse 5, Paul says, For this reason I left you in Crete that you should set in order the things that are lacking and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you. If a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children, not accused of dissipation or insubordination, for a bishop must be blameless as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able to uh, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. And if we keep reading, he says, For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped. So Paul emphasizes, at least there in Crete, there were problems with these false teachers. And he says, You need to appoint elders, shepherds who protect the flock. They must, and so I like Titus's description because he emphasized, gives a little more emphasis to uh capability with handling the word of God and being able to defend the truth because there are false teachers that someone needs to stand up to them, someone needs to be able to speak with soundness and be reasonable and protect the flock from from these uh predators that might come in. So that's that's the standard we are talking about. And I mean, just be honest with yourself as you read through that. Take the aspiration for the office of elder out of this conversation and just think about that description of a follower of Christ. Can you honestly say, I don't really need to. I mean, I get it. You you don't have to be married. All right, that's that's an obvious exception here. You can choose not to be married, but if you're going to be married, I don't really want to be as the the literal Greek text says, a one of one man or of one woman a man. I don't really want to be a one-woman man. Or I don't really want a great marriage. You don't have to have children. But if you do, do you really want to settle for, well, I'll raise children, but they'll be insubordinate.

Nate: 16:27

Yeah, I mean these are troublemakers. These are great qualities to for any Christian to aspire to, right? Like we we should we should want to be uh above reproach.

Kyle: 16:39

Just like I have a picture of Chris Hemsworth on my mirror that I look at every morning is what I aspire to be physically. I do have a picture of him. I don't think he really does. This scripture should be right next to Chris Hemsworth on my mirroring answer. Spiritually, uh I think search your heart. I think you know the answer. This text should be right next to that. Is like I look at this every morning is whether I serve as an elder down the road or not, this is who I want to be. I want a great marriage. And if I'm settling for less, I need to fix that. I want to be a great father or mother. And if I'm settling for less, or if I'm not giving my kids the attention they need from me, I need to address that. I want to be capable with the scriptures. I want to be able to talk about the gospel and salvation with people, even those that are maybe misguided or challenging me. I want to be able to have those back and forth conversations. I want to know the scripture well enough. I want to have a good reputation in the workplace. I want to have self-control. Like we should just look at this list and forget the part about office of overseer. We should just aspire to this. And then appointing elders is simply acknowledging the cream always rises to the top. There are there are people that stand out, and it's not that an elder has a different or higher set of standards. That's that's like the overarching point I want to make in this episode. But also, as pertains to us, what we talked about our children. We could have a mindset for when they're young. What can we do as parents to maybe set them down a path that that maybe leads to this someday?

Nate: 18:25

Well, I liked your um idea just about looking to the future, like having goals and being intentional with with those goals. And I think if if we look at this list as, well, these are goals we should aspire to and then lead by example and talk about them with our our children. You know, I I'm looking at this God's steward, okay, so be a servant. Above reproach. You know, we want to do the right thing in as many situations as we can, in every situation. Uh-uh. Not arrogant, you know, humble. Like these are things that we should be teaching our uh teaching our children, uh aspiring to individually, not just leading by example, but also sharing, you know. We did this because that's showing humility. Humility is uh putting others before before myself and serving them. And I think that if we uh lead by example, show them and teach them, then they will naturally uh do those things because that's how they were raised. But I also think that you know we we can teach these things, but if we do not lead by example, then then it's much less likely that the people we're teaching our kids or whoever else it is are going to latch on because they're gonna see the what do they call that dissonance. Yeah. They're gonna see the difference between what we say and who we are, and who we are is gonna speak louder.

Kyle: 19:52

Well, let's sort of talk through different phases of life here. So as children, we don't always get control of our environment. So maybe more as parents, we want to be mindful of training our children. You know, my dad would bring me along when someone was moving from one house to another across town, and I wasn't much help. But it was a good thing for me to be there and see that we serve others. Or when I was house sitting as a teenager and I accidentally damaged the drywall, not drastically, but enough that my dad said, you need to go talk to him, like you need to be accountable. He was teaching me that idea of being above reproach means you don't hide your mistakes, you own them. So I was trained from a young age, and that's what I want to do as a father. But then as I became a teenager and into my early 20s, it started to be Kyle had his hand on uh the rudder or the steering wheel, and I started to make decisions that guided the ship and the path I was on. So for you guys, when you were in your 20s, you know, 18 through through uh through throughout your 20s, what are some things that you did that have helped you be who you are? What are some things maybe advice you would say, well, I could have done this better, and maybe you guys can learn from this. Um I'll just say, first of all, the biggest thing in your 20s is if you're if you're thinking you're you're you're someone that uh uh is going to be married, uh don't enter into that lightly. Think long and hard about who you're gonna marry. And this is something that whether it's a man or woman, and you're talking about which which man will I marry, which woman will I marry, you need to think about the future and what does that future look like, and is it one that honors God? You know, in 2 Corinthians um chapter 6, Paul talks about do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Specifically, he's not talking about marriage in that text, but what better illustration of being yoked to someone is more applicable or direct than marriage? Yeah. So I I I would come short of saying that's a prohibition or that if you marry an unbeliever, it's invalidated in the eyes of God. No. But I think the Bible does tell you don't do that. Yeah.

Nate: 22:01

It's not it's not a good choice. Yeah. Well, yeah, you asked about um our twenties, and my first thought was we probably don't want to talk about my twenties. Um did a lot of things I probably sh well, I know I shouldn't have done. But I can say this. One um one thing that I I think um I had some wisdom about was not marrying uh someone who uh we differed significantly on matters of faith. I dated a few girls um and we did not see eye to eye on matters of faith. Many other things in our lives matched up, but that didn't. And I just knew in my heart of hearts um that that's a huge mistake if I if I enter into the commitment of marriage with someone who I do not share the deepest values with. Um and so I I waited until I found someone who we held the same values when it came to our faith. And that has been probably one of the biggest blessings in my adult life. So while I made a lot of mistakes in my 20s, that's that's one I don't think that I did.

Kyle: 23:11

But I I I think there's something powerful about that too, is that that that probably characterizes a good percentage of our audience too. Is um I made mistakes. I think we all make mistakes. I I think I look at my 20s a little differently than yours. My mistakes were more subtle. It doesn't mean I needed any less grace from Jesus than you. And that was my struggle was was realizing I was just as lost as the next guy. But even though I was born and raised in the church, I always struggled to feel lost.

Nate: 23:37

Yeah.

Kyle: 23:38

But I understand that better now. But I think a lot of our audience would would resonate with that idea.

Nate: 23:43

And I've I've heard people say, well, I could never be an elder because I've done too many stupid things, I made too many mistakes, and but then you look, you know, it's um at least for me, I look back at a lot of my mistakes, and I I um I do think like it has given me a really um personal understanding of grace. And when you go through some really difficult situations, whether it's your own fault or not, maybe it is the mistakes that you make. If you come at it with the right attitude, you learn some really valuable stuff, and it really helps you empathize with people who maybe made a really poor choice. Um and they're in a very difficult situation. But because, you know, maybe you've been there, um, you have some additional wisdom through experience that that someone who hasn't experienced that, they just don't have the same kind of uh maybe, maybe connection because they haven't been there.

Kyle: 24:36

I think that's what makes Paul's testimony so powerful is just a contrast of who he was and the 180-degree change that Christ made in his life. So when someone tells me I don't think I could ever be uh an elder because of all my mistakes, I say, well, I don't think you understand just how big and how powerful and how amazing and beautiful God's grace is.

Nate: 24:59

Well, I mean, you look at like Peter, I mean, I kind of see him as like a redneck fisherman, like uh I don't I don't there are probably people who know a lot more about him than I do. But what mistake in his life did he not make, right? He was really impetuous. I I think he you know thought with his emotions before his brain a lot of the time. And repeatedly Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh we don't know everything there is to know about his life, but I would what mistake did he not make? I he was uh he was not a perfect man. Um, and yet he became an elder.

Jon: 25:29

And and I wonder it's like asked the question of why. Why did Jesus want him? Sure. And I think it's because you do need to get down to the core fact behind all this and say he needs him. And he needed, he needs men. Yeah. He needs us, he needs men and people to step up and uh bring people to Christ and to shepherd those who you know on their way. And so he needs men. It's yeah, and I think that that's one of those core things you need to think about in the back of your head is that um this is something that we need to have. And some I mean at some point people need to identify if they're the people to step up.

Kyle: 26:09

This is really important because I don't I don't want people to have their takeaway from this episode be, well, if I haven't been working on this since day one, then what's the point now? That that that's not the takeaway. Is I'm just trying to say is as early as we can, this is a good goal, a good objective to aspire towards. But if you haven't, if you're getting a later start, that doesn't stop you either from from from getting on this path and making this your goal and aspiration. And so don't don't feel like if I botched it in my 20s or my 30s, it's too late for me now. That's not the point.

Nate: 26:42

So that brings to mind um the passage in Romans 8, uh where I'm just gonna bring it up so that uh so that I don't butcher it. But um yeah, if you're thinking like, well, my mistakes um preclude me from you know becoming an elder or you know, I'm just a little bit late to the game and I've done too many things in life.

Kyle: 27:02

Neither height nor depth nor um that's not the one it's 28.

Nate: 27:08

Uh for those who love God, all things work together for good. For those who are called according to his purpose. And I think about that. Like, for those who love God, all things work together for good? Wait a second. I look back at my life and I go, man, I made some horrible mistakes there. That was terrible. But then I read this verse and I thought about, okay, how on earth can that be a good thing? And then the thought came to me, well, there will be someone else who goes through something like that, who needs the wisdom that you now have from going through that thing. And uh I can look back time and time again, uh, young men who have gone through and made mistakes that I made when I was their age, uh, and I can say, you are not alone. And that was one of the biggest things when I was in my early 20s that was so difficult is I felt like I was this horrible sinner, and so nobody else in the church had ever made mistakes like this. And so how could I go and admit to them, you know, the the horrible things that I had done? God can take those things, those mistakes that we've made, and if we love him and if we're called according to his purpose, he'll turn them into something good. And so don't let that stop you from, you know, wanting to be an elder.

Jon: 28:23

So you're talking about past grandpa, dad, both elders. I had as a 20-year-old aspirations and desires in that direction. I did not expect to, you know, have a six, seven-year, I just did that. Six, seven years. It was between six, seven. Uh it was between six and seven years uh of marriage fail and to get divorced. And I felt like during that time, I I felt like, you know, I'm losing a lot in life. Am I also losing that ability to serve the Lord in in certain ways? And if I'm ever qualified in some day, I don't think that changes my desire to bring others to Christ and to be someone to help, you know, lead my family and lead lead others. But I do think that I know what it's like, as we're talking about, to be in positions where you know you just don't know what the future is going to look like.

Kyle: 29:16

For those that might be listening in that late teen, early 20s demographic, um, which I'd like to think we're we're hip and in in it enough where we we attract some of that crowd, maybe.

Nate: 29:28

So if that's you 67% think that.

Kyle: 29:31

Yeah. I would just say this is a time to be present with the church, um, and and invest in your faith by reading and studying, trying to learn and understand. Uh, and we'll talk about in the 30s. Maybe that's the time, 30s and 40s is like, let's let's dip our toes in the water of teaching a little bit. But in your twenties, learn and grow. Sit at the feet of of those wise teachers, learn from them, ask lots of questions, and try to be involved with uh and w with anything going on. On at church or with people at church, try to be involved, try to be present, and and just think long and hard and pray all day long and all night long about who it is you're gonna marry and think very carefully about that decision. So that that's just good advice if you not to say that that that it's if you mess up once, then you're off track, and that's that. But that that would I uh that's what I would say would be some good advice for those in their 20s that that want to have future success spiritually, is maybe focus on those goals. We get into the 30s and and and 40s, and that's a little more where we are. John's in his early 40s, I am months, weeks away from entering into the 40s. So, and we're we're all our families are all roughly equivalent with multiple children right around the same age. John and I have more kids than you do, but keep going.

Jon: 30:53

Yeah, yeah. No one's counting except for we are. It's quality over quantity. I mean, thank you very much.

Nate: 31:00

Low blow.

Kyle: 31:01

What we hit perfection, we hit perfection at two kids. It's taking you guys three tries.

Jon: 31:06

So but yes, we're all in that kind of mode where uh we have young kids. Um, yeah, mine's a little older, and and I I'm enjoying that. I mean, you're kind of I'm kind of really enjoying having. Is that crazy? And does I don't think I've ever heard of anyone saying they're enjoying having a 13-year-old. I don't know that that's things people say, but I'm enjoying seeing someone grow and uh ask questions and explore the world and learn.

Kyle: 31:35

What I look forward to in my 40s, I think, I think 30s and 40s kind of run together with with some of these ideas. Um I think it's important not to get caught up in in career. We want to be financially mindful of the future, but we just want to make sure that doesn't become at the expense of our kids.

Nate: 31:51

Not to the neglect of our family.

Kyle: 31:53

Yeah. And and so just being mindful of uh what's that what's that country song about uh you might think it was wasted time, but you reflect on it, it was time well wasted when when you took a day off from work to go fishing with your son or things like that. Like just be mindful of investing in your children and and well, I can I ask you a question?

Nate: 32:16

No, no, no, keep going, Kyle.

Kyle: 32:18

Uh didn't you just ask him the question?

Jon: 32:19

Can I ask you a question? But it I as it kind of like gets into here is is Nate, when you were uh when you became a deacon, yeah, did you weigh this idea of like do I have the time to to be a deacon? Yeah do I, you know, with my family and my my career aspirations and things like that, did you sit there and kind of weigh that? Uh yeah. Was it a hard deliberation or was it an easy deliberation?

Nate: 32:45

But John, I think it was I think it was I think it was difficult. I think where it became more difficult um uh a year or two after I became a deacon and um you know, times got hard and I had to get a second job. That's when it became more difficult. It's like, oh, um I I really have to be uhware of making time to do the work of a deacon.

Jon: 33:09

Yeah. But I I bring that up because I'm I I think that that's a a real concern people think about, even the idea of becoming an elder is like I'm gonna wait until I'm done with my career, or I'm gonna wait until you know, like a certain milestone in life, and I'm gonna kind of maybe if that's something I'll do then, but you know, I uh maybe I don't have time to do that. And I think that people kind of weigh that idea of the time commitment to be a deacon or an elder or you know, other things. Um and I I don't know that that should I I think that's a normal factor, a normal, normal thing to think about, but I do um hope that that doesn't sway people to plan for it still, because I mean I don't it's like when you have kids. Who who sat there and said, I have just amount of money to have my three kids? No one does that. You you have your kids and you feel like you figure out how to adapt to it. And I don't think that becoming you know a leader or or doing different things is something you go into it uh foolheartedly and adapt to. But I do think that there's probably not going to be a perfect time in your life where you're gonna have all the time in the world and and plenty of time and and dedication to just serve. And so I do think it's something that is do you know what I mean? Like I don't I worry that people will kind of put off the idea of I just maybe later in life I'll do things because right now I don't need to.

Kyle: 34:34

I've known plenty of good men that had the talent, had the ability, had the heart uh and the temperament for serving as a as a deacon or as an elder, uh, but it's that uh that attitude of of some more convenient time. Nothing.

Jon: 34:50

And I don't think it's ever gonna happen.

Kyle: 34:52

And I feel like I I feel like this is the stage in your life when when your career, you're kind of at that fork in the road with career and uh planning for retirement, and now you're providing for growing kids. And uh now's the time when you're tempted to pour all your efforts and energies into noble causes, but to be pulled away from what is of eternal importance.

Jon: 35:17

Am I being naive and thinking that that's not that shouldn't be as big of a factor as we make it sometimes? Well, and I think we shouldn't shy away from I mean, I you don't want if someone really can't commit the time at all to do it, and you don't want someone who's who's not able to. I get that. But I also think that if it's a goal, you have to plan around and make time to do the things that are worthwhile doing. And I let's say I don't want to be naive and and just saying I'm gonna bub a blanket statement for everyone else. Make the time, it's good to do, do it. Um, because yeah, I mean, one, you have to desire the work, but two, I don't know. I just I don't know. Well, I think that's an unhealthy idea.

Kyle: 35:59

I think that's an unhealthy idea. Again, with the idea that uh the qualifications for elders, it's not a separate set of of or a higher standard. So if I'm too busy to be an elder, what you're really just saying is I'm too busy to I don't I'm not an elder, so I don't have to spend as much time as they do on church stuff. Well, take the title away and you're spreading God's word and mentoring people. That's my point is it is do elders have I mean some higher requirement of of time commitment on on doing things in the Lord's kingdom or for God's glory? And and so what when you say I'm too busy to serve as a deacon or too busy to serve as an elder, it's well, what else are you too busy not to do?

Jon: 36:44

I think the best qualified elders are people who are already doing that. And people who are already doing the work of elders, who are out there who are just living their life, trying to get people to Christ and being the best example that they can. And that mentoring people along the way.

Kyle: 36:58

At this point in my life, it's a little different because I'm a preacher and it's my job to teach Bible classes, but I think that at this age, uh, I love what uh Phil Robertson said in our gospel meeting a couple weeks ago. You can listen to it uh on our YouTube channel for the Clovis Church of Christ. Uh he talks about that that there's really no excuse by the time you get to uh 50. You should be a Bible scholar and you should see yourself that way. That you've committed time to, and it doesn't mean you have to get a master's degree in biblical studies, but you should be someone that knows the scriptures. If you commit your time to it and work towards that, that's something you we should all aspire to do. And it's very reasonable, and I think it's it's honestly kind of uh embarrassing if if you've been a Christian for 30 years. So I I guess my encouragement is in your 20s, 30s, and and into your 40s, is when you're presented with opportunities to step up and do something or take leadership if it's not the office of deacon or elder, but if you're presented with an opportunity to take a leadership role, whether it's teaching a class or organizing some sort of service and taking care of others, don't walk away from it. Oh, sure. Don't turn your back on that opportunity, embrace it. And I I this is something I take to heart. Uh, in some of our elders' meetings, um, we've had some conversations about potentially bringing in uh a young preacher like I did 20 years ago at this very church to train, to do a one-year training program. And I keep thinking, Scott, I know he just sort of retired, but but he'll be the one to lead that. I I'm I don't have enough experience. And I just had this moment of well, I've been doing this for 20 years, and I don't have enough experience to share and help someone. What have I been doing the last 20 years? Like if if that's how I feel part of it is I just maybe I'm trying to feel like I should be humble about this, or but no, I think this is an opportunity, and and just to be clear, nothing has been determined about that. That's all very tentative talk about bringing in a training preacher, so just uh don't run with that too far. Uh but this is more about my self-reflection, and I it's it's an opportunity I should embrace, not not feel scared of, and and try to learn from it as proving grounds. Um by the way, things like visiting, you know, elders. If you're a shepherd, you know the sheep in the flock. Shepherds, our shepherds here at this church are very good about visiting folks that are in the hospital or that can't get out of the home or that are struggling spiritually. And if you have a desire to do that, but it seems intimidating, just call up one of the shepherds and say, Can I go visit some folks with you? I do that. Yeah. You know, and I'm the preacher here, and I still do that. I still call up. Uh, there's a couple elders I do that somewhat regularly with. I call them up and say, Let's go visit a few folks today. And it just makes me feel better knowing I don't have to carry a conversation. Um, there's someone else talking and makes it easier. And so there's ways to do that and get yourself involved, putting some of what you hopefully have been learning in your your teens and 20s, start putting it into practice. Um start small. Be involved with uh VBS or or co-teaching a Bible class for a semester. Start uh teach teach a home Bible study group devotional for one night. That's a one-night commitment. Um if you've never done an invitation, maybe sign up to do that. Find some ways where you can start to apply what you've learned in the scriptures. You might think, I'm not ready to teach. Well, have you been a Christian for 20 years at this point in your life? And you can't teach a 10-year-old Bible basics? You can. You're just doubting yourself.

Jon: 40:47

So, Kyle, what is it to aspire to the uh office of an overseer?

Kyle: 40:53

Well, the idea of aspire, let's see. Um to stretch oneself or to reach out after for something. Uh Vine says it is signifying the mental effort of stretching oneself oneself out for a thing or longing after it.

Nate: 41:10

So that's interesting. You the word aspire is used because in the word aspire is the word spire, and aspire is the top, right? The pinnacle of a building or a precipice. We should be aiming. Aiming high. Aiming high, right? And and there are other passages that tell us to do that, and not necessarily in the context of becoming an elder, but like Ephesians 4, I think it is, it talks about we should aim to be like Jesus, right? That was what we should be aiming at. Is that not an aspiration like shooting high? Yeah, we should shoot high. Absolutely. And and if you have that goal, uh the younger you are, the the more likely you are to, you know, really dig into that.

Jon: 41:50

If you're 80, 90 years old at the end of your life and you had aspired to be an elder or a shepherd, and you lived the life that you could, but you maybe have never actually served as an elder. I don't think anyone's going to look back on a life that's wasted. I mean, so at the end of the day, like you're you're not, you know, as we should use our lives to his fullest extent and aspire a lot higher than that.

Kyle: 42:18

And I would also add that at this point in your lives, as we're getting into our 40s now, um people are looking up to us. Uh we're we're none of us are elders. You gotta be at least 50 to be an elder. Is that no, no, not kidding? Um, but none of us are elders yet, but there are people that are looking up to us, and I think it's important to even at this point include them in some of the things we do.

Nate: 42:43

You bring up a good uh good um thought there, Kyle. And I think that it's important that uh we do that as a as a church. I'm not an elder, I'm not the wisest guy on the planet at all. Um, but I think that's a really smart thing to do is to look to the future. And what do they call that in business? Legacy planning something? Looking to the future, who are gonna be who's the next generation of elders? You know, and then maybe beneath that, who's the next generation of deacons? And who are the folks who are uh have a predisposition towards maybe teaching or leading?

Kyle: 43:15

So thoughtfully ask some people to get involved in something in something you're working on at this phase of your life. Um thoughtfully choose some people and ask them to maybe how can they get involved, how can they participate, how can they help? Because that was some of the most formative experiences I had were when I was training, I was given a list of names and addresses as a 20-year-old or 21-year-old. You're gonna go visit these complete strangers, and that's your job for today, Kyle. It was awkward, but I was pushed into it and I I benefited greatly. Or uh a little bit later on in a different church, we didn't have elders, but one of the men that I looked up to, who became an elder of that church, there was a situation where we'll call him a patriarch of the church, had some had some issues. It's a Matthew 18 situation. Go and um take two or three witnesses. And this older gentleman that I looked up to said, Kyle, I want you to come with me on this. It's gonna be good for you. It's not gonna be pleasant, it's not gonna be fun to go have this conversation with this with this elderly member. Um, and it was not a pleasant thing, but it was very formative for me that he he brought me in on something that needed to happen. And and uh got me out of my comfort zone to do so. I I've tried to be mindful of how can I bring some people in and maybe thoughtfully push them out of their comfort zone, but without overwhelming them.

Nate: 44:46

Well, isn't that just discipleship?

Kyle: 44:48

Yeah.

Nate: 44:49

I mean, right? Everybody's at maybe a different level, you know. Uh it's discipleship, right? It and that takes um people to to push us out of our comfort zone sometimes, and and it takes people to care, right? It says go therefore and make disciples. Well, that means there's a discipler and a disciplee.

Kyle: 45:06

As I look ahead to you know, into my 40s and 50s, as I look ahead to the coming decades, my children will be teenagers and going on to college and moving out. That's what's ahead for me. Yeah. Um, I've been married for 20 years. So I I've I'm pretty far down the road, but I've still got a lot of major obstacles ahead of me. I look ahead and think, there's never a time to just hit cruise control in life. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean, just think the example that sticks out to me is King David. When you go to 2 Samuel chapter 11, and you read those first 10 chapters of the book, um he he it took him a while to secure the throne, and then he had to deal with some of Saul's sons who who most of the tribes still were faithful to him. He ruled over Judah only, but then he unified the kingdom and reigned over all Israel. And then there's some conquests, like in chapter 8, and he further expanded the boundaries and conquered enemies and found peace, and he relocated the ark back to its proper home. Um, he did a lot of things and accomplished a lot, and I think he's at that midway point in life, and then Bathsheba happens. And it it things sort of start to head downhill slowly for him after that. And so I just that story always sticks out to me as like I look at all David accomplished at that point in his life, and I'm like, that's sort of how I feel right now. I've I've got kids that are getting into the teenage years almost, and I'm about 40, I've been preaching for 20 years, I feel like I've got some experience and some knowledge, I've been married for 20 years. I've actually like done three or four different uh marriage, pre-marriage counselings. Like I feel like I'm starting to be, I'm starting to be that guy, that that older guy that people look up to. Well, it's not time to coast. Oh, yeah. Like that that's the fear I have, and something that I need to keep uh keep present, is just don't, don't, don't start coasting. Well, do you guys have any other final thoughts about what we've talked about or what what your thoughts are about looking ahead, what what's coming down the road for you guys, and and what it means to aspire to be uh an overseer. But also I think the bigger point is just this is a clear objective. First Timothy chapter three, Titus chapter one, those those paragraphs about the elder uh and the deacon, those are just descriptions of what we should all want to be as Christians.

Jon: 47:37

Let me say that I aspire to be someone that my son looks up to. I aspire to be someone that can help others. Um, I aspire to be knowledgeable. I want to be at a point where I'm at a place that I can help others because I've managed my own my own faith, my own understanding, learning. But I have sometimes a problem with a presumptuous perspective of aspiring to be an elder, as if others would think I'm qualified. And and so sometimes I think that even though you you sit there and you think, hey, well, is this something you want to do? One, I I do want to self-check that you're wanting to do something for the right reason. You know, uh I want to get in there and and and you know, I have all the answer. You know, I don't want to have that kind of mentality. But two, I do.

Kyle: 48:25

Remember what Jesus said, leadership is serving.

Jon: 48:29

So you should definitely, you know, be humbled in that perspective. But I just I don't know if you guys have any better insight this or have ever felt the same way, but I don't think I've ever just walked out there and said to someone, yeah, I hope it's be an elder one day. Well, we need to have- Even though I might have that feeling inside and have at one point in time thought that it feels kind of presumptuous, or I don't know, it feels weird to be in that position to make that statement as if because I feel like it's really up to the flock to decide if you are to want to want to protect the flock, to want to glorify God through keeping souls saved and helping them get to heaven.

Kyle: 49:11

What greater life could you aspire to? Now, I think we all need the attitude of King David, though. So I'm gonna come back to David in a positive sense. He aspired to build the temple for God, he wanted to build a house for God, and God's answer was, no, not you. Your hands have shed much blood. So he said, Okay, I'm not gonna build it. I will gather supplies, I will put designs together, I will do everything I can to make Solomon's job easier for him. And I think that's the attitude we all need to have is it's not so much that I want a title or a recognition, if that never happens, that's fine. I will find the next, the next best way to be useful in this body and and serve in whatever role or function I'm in to the glory of God. And so that's a lesson I think we can learn from King David and when when he aspired to build the house for God, but was told no, just wasn't for him.

Nate: 50:10

Yeah, sometimes you have something that you want to do and you find out you can't doesn't mean you quit. It means you do what you can do in that situation, or you find a way, you know, over around through whatever to get a job done. But you do it. Just do it. Kyle, great episode, man. Um, really appreciated uh the perspective on um aspiring to be an elder, uh, regardless of who you are, aspiring to the characteristics and qualities of an elder, man, woman, uh, you know, old, young. This is very good. So we appreciate that very much. And if you're listening and you appreciated this uh this conversation, this episode, like, subscribe, share with your friends, and uh we we hope to have you back at the next episode.

Kyle: 50:58

We aspire to have 100,000 subscribers by the end of 2026. Let's do it.

Nate: 51:06

I mean, exponentially, all we'd have to do is double our subscribership every day.

Kyle: 51:11

Oh, is that all? Well, I mean Well, if if you sponsor five subscribers beneath you, that's right, then you can start your own network. That's right. It's like a pyramid.

Jon: 51:22

And then and then we'll have the Michael Scott pyramid.

Kyle: 51:26

You know, they they talk about like you used to say like the Cadillac of blank. Like like that was like a uh a positive thing. And you say, well, you're just a Timu blank, you're a Timu version, you're a Timu photographer. Oh it's like an insult. Can we do that like like like Timu Christians, Timu Christianity? Oh you're just a cheap knockoff, cheap knockoff of the real thing? Cheap Christian. It's a good podcast episode.

Jon: 51:49

Is there a revelation church that that aligns to? Oh. Timu, Timu congregation. Yeah. Is that Lost First Love? No, that's not.

Kyle: 52:04

You have a name, but you are dead? Yeah.

Jon: 52:06

Well, I guess Timu. Or pretend literally pretend to be real. That would be what that would be, right?

Nate: 52:15

Sometimes you have something that you want to do and you find out you can't, doesn't mean you quit. It means you do what you can do in that situation, or you find a way, you know, over a round three or whatever, to get a job done, but you do it.

Kyle: 52:29

Just do it. Or you slip your opponent some poison and just remove them from the equation. Iokane. Iokane powder.

Nate: 52:38

I was thinking rice and I like rice and beans. Like on a tortilla.

Jon: 52:44

I just want to build up over time. You know, I'm mean to iokane powder. I just think that would be a really good jumble approach.

Kyle: 52:53

If I mean it says here that Titus was to appoint elders, so I can just wave my magic wand as the preacher. If you want to be an elder, I'll just make it. Just make it happen. Make it happen. Poof. Poof. For our audience uh at home, that's not how it works, just to be clear.