Exhorter Podcast
Welcome to the Exhorter Podcast, where we aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussions. This local effort of the Church of Christ, located in Clovis, California, is hosted by Kyle Goodwin, Nate Shankels, and Jon Bradford.
Exhorter Podcast
76 - Sanctifying Marriage: Boundaries, Wisdom, and the Pence Rule
What boundaries protect and sanctify your marriage? In this episode, we talk about the so-called “Pence Rule,” opposite-sex friendships, and why 1 Thessalonians 4 calls us to intentional holiness. It's not about fear—it’s about wisdom, trust, and honoring your spouse before God.
Should married people have close friendships with the opposite sex? We unpack the thinking behind avoiding one-on-one time with the opposite sex: Is it fear-based, or a wise way to protect trust? Then we turn to 1 Thessalonians 4 to explore how pursuing holiness and transparency can strengthen emotional intimacy with your spouse.
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Welcome to the Exhorted Podcast, where we aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. Today, our episode will be taken by Kyle Kyle. What are we going to learn and chat about today?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what to call this episode, but we'll start with the Mike Pence rule, which actually used to be called the Billy Graham rule before that. What I mean is, you know, a couple of election cycles ago, when Mike Pence was the vice president, some things came up that people were either celebrating on one side or very critical of on the other. And it's this idea that he followed, essentially the Billy Graham rules, and for some reason people started calling it the Mike Pence rule because, well, he's new and and was more relevant at the time. But it's a general principle that's been championed by quite a few people and it goes something to the effect of that that he wouldn't, you know, dine alone with a woman or go to like parties where alcohol is served if his wife was not there. So it really just boiled down to that idea of not doing things alone, one-on-one with another woman, you know, apart from his wife being there. And you get a variety of opinions.
Speaker 2:And I found this old article from Vox, which we know they've got a certain political leaning of their own, but this article starts with just this, this critical examination of quote unquote the Mike Pence rule, saying it deserves a second look, and the title is that it isn't honorable. In fact it's probably illegal is what they're talking about. And so that's one of the concerns is is it discriminatory against? You know, you can go dine with a male coworker but not a female coworker. And I think this really just shows that a lot of people are just attacking what's on the surface of this idea without really digging into the meaning behind it or looking for nuance. And so it begins with this, an example, this quotation of I don't work with women If they're attractive, I'm too tempted, and if they're not attractive, what's the point? A male partner at a law firm casually made this pronouncement one day at lunch, hardly looking up from his plate.
Speaker 1:Everyone laughed and went back to eating, and as if that's Wait, is that a quote or is that just something someone supposed, someone would say? Because that's pretty clever.
Speaker 2:No, no, I just maybe laugh. I was like sit someone at a law firm once.
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 2:No, it's referenced as an anonymous quote.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Just saying that in the rough and tumble world of DC law, it isn't even the most obnoxious thing that was said that day. So it is in the context of an actual quote. And, yeah, I think a lot of us that maybe would find some value in the so-called Mike Pence rule would look at that quotation and say, well, that guy sounds like a pig and that's not really. I think you're, you're straw manning it. That's not really. The idea behind it is they want to talk about this idea that it's. It's what you can't control yourself. You don't want to be around another woman because you just can't control yourself, and that's sort of what's what's referenced there with that quote. But that's not really the idea there at all. I think the concept there and I see their legal concerns and all that and that that's worth some consideration. But I think if we want to look at what's this really about, there is some solid material there for married folks to learn from this.
Speaker 3:This is a common practice in the teaching world. We get training every year on what to do and what not to do with students, and one of the trainings for male teachers is do not be alone in a classroom with a female student. If, for some reason, that is the case, open your door. Make sure the shades on the window are open. Call another co-worker in there, because there have been too many situations where either bad things happened or teachers were accused of bad things happening and there was no one there to refute. Refute what was said, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I find that kind of but that's discrimination, so we can't do that I find that sort of missing the point the way they, the way they straw man that with. If that's your concern, that it's discriminatory against female coworkers, you can find ways around it. If that, if you're going to be like Mike Pence, then I would say don't have lunch. You know, business lunches. If it's a social thing like that's, that's different. But if you're going to discuss business over lunch like well, maybe don't do that with the men either, like make it equal.
Speaker 2:So there's easy ways to get around it, because I just find it almost laughable that they would criticize this rule so out of hand, without even considering it. When you think about how much scandal is there in DC, how many times do politicians get caught with a mistress or in places they shouldn't be.
Speaker 1:Do you want to know the number? I would love that John has the empirical evidence 30% of extramarital affairs begin at work. The fact is, a lot of these kinds of things happen at work, why you spend a lot of time with them.
Speaker 1:You're there more than you are at home. That's just the number of hours in the day. Yeah, I get what you mean, kyle. I understand being in a corporation that people would say you know, I'm not giving the same opportunities to other people allows them for opportunities for advancement and things like this, but most of the time they're just. They sneer at most morality and most perspectives of things that would be good and right and just, and I think absolutely the way around all those is is to just be fair across the board. If you're a manager, you just don't have meetings alone with other people. You have another, another co, another co-manager, another supervisor in the like. People have annual reviews and you'll meet one-on-one with your manager or stuff, and I think it's just important. It's like do it in a open space. A lot of offices have full wall windows, like just like. There's other ways of doing that that doesn't bring reproach or opportunity of impropriety into question with other people.
Speaker 2:It isn't simply that I can't control myself. If I'm alone with another woman, ok, that's not an unreasonable thing to consider either is I don't want to let my guard down and put myself in a vulnerable position. But I think the other consideration is I can't control what other people say about or think about that situation. So the narrative is now out of my control.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you need to have a witness there. You need to have someone there who can say no, that's not what happened.
Speaker 2:Because that's our policy at summer camp too is I've got a cabin full of kids, but if it's just me and one other kid in there, it's like try to move it along. Either tell them well, where do you need to be right now, let's move it along, so just don't hang out in that situation. That's not a good position to be in.
Speaker 1:We are now in a world where two people go into a room and shut that door and there's just question about and weird feelings about that. And I think this is in all workplaces. I think my grandfather was a preacher. Preachers do this all the time, like they bring in their wife or they bring in right. You know they bring in someone else, especially if there's a female who needs to. You know, talk through something. It's just a smart tactic and it stinks that you would take something that is designed to show respect to other people and to yourself and to your wife and to your family members and everyone. You take something that's designed to show respect to people, sure, sure, and you would use it for a selfish slander of unequal. You know workplace, you know attention and stuff and at the end of the day, I think there's ways around it. It got negative press, but I think there's ways around it.
Speaker 2:Well, here's how I'd like to sort of preface this episode. John's already brought up some statistics, so I got to balance it out with some scripture. Let me read 1 Thessalonians 4. I think this is one of those places where it introduces a principle. You mean verses three through five. Well, I was going to look at verses one through eight, but specifically three through five.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so you came up with that one too, you get a Bible sticker. Thank you, thank you, but this is one of those places where, like many places in the Bible, it introduces a principle, and God doesn't spell it out. For us Says I'm going to tell you what I expect, but I'm going to leave it up to you to use your brain that I gave you to figure out what this looks like in your life and how to apply it. So that's really the way I want to approach this topic, is I want to read this principle in first Thessalonians four and then maybe ask you guys some questions how do we apply this principle? Finally, then, brethren, we urge and exhort, in the Lord Jesus, that you should abound more and more, just as you receive from us how you ought to walk and to please God, for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. You ought to walk and to please God, for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus, for this is the will of God, your sanctification. That you should abstain from sexual immorality. That each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all, such as we also forewarned you and testified, for God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore, he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us his Holy Spirit. So he talks about that that each of us should know how to possess his own vessel and sanctification and honor, and that's the principle I want to work with here, because it goes on to say you don't defraud your brother.
Speaker 2:I think he's talking largely about adultery and infidelity. Here is when, when you have an affair with someone else's wife, you're defrauding your brother. But he says that you should know how to possess your own vessel, your, your own body, in sanctification and honor. You should know how to behave yourself in an honorable way, and he doesn't spell that out. So that's what I want us to do today, guys. What does that look like to you? To, as it says here, possess your vessel in sanctification and honor? What are some rules that maybe you have in place that safeguard your marriage and maybe direct your interactions with members of the opposite gender?
Speaker 3:So the one of the first thing that comes to mind is like if I have some, some communication, I need to get out to some.
Speaker 3:Some like a lady here at church, or or like our neighbor, for example. She's a single gal with some kids, and sometimes our kids feed our dogs, so I want to let them know. Like when we're going out of town, whenever I text her, I always include my wife in the text message, and one of the reasons that I do that is just so that there's no like there can be no thought of oh well, you know Nate was trying to do this or that with her. It's like no, no, it's just, let's keep it above board. You know, everybody's aware of exactly what's going on. And same with you know, like for group meetings. If I need to get in touch with one of the ladies in my group, I always include my wife on the text message so that there can be no question, like my wife can't open up my phone and say, well, why were you texting so-and-so? Yeah, that's a similar policy I've got.
Speaker 2:I mentioned summer camp. You know I'm in contact with a lot of kids that are under the age of 18. And you've got to be really careful how you interact with them and a lot of times I've got their contact information and they reach out to me or I reach out to them. But oftentimes I will include their parents or at the very least I might. If a kid reaches out and is asking me some Bible questions or talking to me about something, at the very least I'll let their parents know like hey, you know you're appreciate your kid was talking to me about this and and just wanted you to know. Like I want some transparency there. Yeah, yeah, and so that's a really safe policy there.
Speaker 2:I think that also maybe gets into a little bit broader question too about cell phones. Oh, yeah, anytime you give the impression that you're you might be hiding something, I just don't think that's a good look. That doesn't build the kind of trust in marriage that I think our wives want. Yeah, jessica knows the the the pin to my cell phone and I know the pin to hers and I walked up on her sometimes where she's got my phone open and and so you know, going through some of the texts and some of the things I text with the guys are embarrassing but, I've got nothing in there that I'm afraid for her to see.
Speaker 2:Yeah and uh, so I just saved the good stuff for in person. Yeah, but I think that's very important to have this, this open, transparent policy. Yeah, Uh, the ideal marriage in Genesis says that Adam and Eve they were both naked and not ashamed. And yes, yeah, the ideal marriage in Genesis says that Adam and Eve they were both naked and not ashamed.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's true literally, but I think it was also metaphorically true that there was nothing hidden between them, and that's the ideal marriage.
Speaker 3:So my wife and I have a similar policy and like, sometimes on Facebook or on Twitter, some things will pop up that are just inappropriate, and that's happened to me before and I felt like a sense of of guilt, like, oh, you know, I shouldn't, I shouldn't look at that, um, and it's just as I'm scrolling through right and I've told Ashley about it, and uh, and then I've deleted apps from my phone because it's just like there's too much of this going on here and I don't want. I like I've deleted the YouTube app because some of the ads it was like nope, sorry, can't do it.
Speaker 1:Now we have the same policies too, and generally it's like I always feel uncomfortable when someone texts me directly and you know my wife's not on the thread. So generally you know, if it's a quick thing there, you know, maybe I'll do that. But if it's like an ongoing conversation, I'll just throw both of them in a thread and send it off like that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's a good policy one to not have. It's so funny, though, like people in outside of the church, people in the world, the concept of someone having your phone password is like foreign.
Speaker 2:Now I have abused that a couple of times where I've written a message from her phone, like in her girls chat group. They were about to pick her up to go out on a girls night out and, as Jessica, I just texted oh, I'll be right out, I gotta put my dentures in.
Speaker 3:And so for months, all of her friends were like I can't tell their dentures those are really good.
Speaker 2:But I've never done anything that like it was funny.
Speaker 3:I've never done anything that seriously abused that trust.
Speaker 2:But well, let's kind of roll forward this idea of transparency and just talk about, not just on our phones but when we go out. I think it's important too that we should just proactively tell our wives and I'm going to talk about like what we should do with our wives and I'm going to talk from the perspective of a man but a lot of this there's an inverse of that for our women listeners too. I think we have a couple of women listeners maybe.
Speaker 1:Statistically, there's gotta be one somewhere. Yeah so it works on the. You know a lot of these rules work on the inverse.
Speaker 2:Maybe some oh yeah, my mom Maybe a little bit of tweaking if you're a woman listening and kind of tweaking it from the other perspective. So I'm going to talk from that perspective. But just understand like it works both ways here. But when it comes to my wife, I don't want to leave her in the dark on where I'm going and who I'm going with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I, as a preacher, I've Unless you're donating plasma to earn money for a vacation, then it's okay, she doesn't know, as long as it's for a good cause.
Speaker 2:I remember yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So don't keep secrets from your wife, even if it's for a surprise vacation. No, but I've, as a preacher, I've had a front row seat to a lot of uh, just divorces, a lot of marriages just falling apart, and and I see some trends and I'll probably share some of those.
Speaker 2:It's not a. It's not a hard and fast statistic like John might bring up, but it's it's more, um, subjective and personal, but things that I've seen, trends I've noticed, and one of them is this that a lot of times when a marriage falls apart, I've noticed that one of the partners starts going out more and doesn't always tell the spouse the spouse has left. One spouse has left at home wondering where's my husband, where's my wife? And. And that that spouse might complain about like, well, she's always breathing down my neck, she's always wanting to know where I am, she always trying to control me. And well, don't put her in that position.
Speaker 2:Um, I think Jessica has a right to know where I'm at and who's there with me. Yeah, and so I don't leave her in the position where she feels like she has to ask me and then she's like, well, I don't want to, I don't want to start nagging Kyle, I don't want to act like his mom. So I don't put her in that position. Yeah, I just tell her she knows when I go somewhere I don't always say when I'll be back, because you know.
Speaker 3:Because then I have a deadline I have to keep Right. But I don't want to put her in that position.
Speaker 2:I want her to know who I'm going out, where I'm going and who I'm going with.
Speaker 1:So she's not just remove the doubt right away these days, it's really easy, like if you've got multiple cell phones and you know an Apple plan thing. You just have everyone shared locations and stuff. We do that with our kids. We do that with each other.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, She'll text me. She's like you said you were coming home from work and that was 15 minutes ago and I see you're still there.
Speaker 1:She doesn't like it when I see she she's walking around Marshall's when she said she was going to go to the grocery store. But you know it works both ways. I think that there's lots of different things we can do to help remove that kind of guesswork, just kind of squash a lot of that suspicion that generally might creep in, especially if they have friends in the world and stuff. These things come up Well that idea of friendship.
Speaker 2:that brings up another related question, Because if you didn't talk about this.
Speaker 1:I have a whole section here about opposite sex friendships.
Speaker 2:Let's just give John a round of applause, he had some good thoughts on this.
Speaker 3:Do you have statistics on it? I do.
Speaker 1:Do you have scriptures on it? I do.
Speaker 2:This brings up another related question as a married man and as a Christian, should I have friends of the opposite gender, and some of that's, I think, in how it's phrased? Yeah, because I consider my.
Speaker 1:I consider the other couples and friends groups right. Their wives are my friends Wives. I consider us as friends and friendly, but I don't consider us on an individual friendship Like couples are friendships. I don't consider that that female my my direct friend and I wouldn't hang out with them. But for me, I have, like, some history in this that affects the way I think and that's generally how it is. The past and stuff creeps in and you have now historic ways of thinking about this one. It was a friend group. It was another couple we were hanging out with in previous marriage and got really close and that ended up, you know, leading to a broken marriage, two broken marriages, and so you see that kind of thing firsthand and you understand it a lot more. Some of the stats I want to bring up One, though, is 84% of people in general believe platonic friendships between men and women are possible, even though 53.5% of affairs involve close friends.
Speaker 1:So even though most affairs happen between opposite sex friends, we still kind of think and want to think that majority of that's okay, which means we're just not understanding. We're not understanding where the temptation is, we're not understanding the danger there and we're just kind of playing with the lit candle.
Speaker 1:You know we just don't really understand it, and I think that goes further into just understanding that people have struggles in their marriage. Yeah, and the first thing that I have seen is when people have struggles in marriage, they seek outside help Someone to talk to. And generally the people who are of the opposite sex are the most empathetic and or currently having issues themselves.
Speaker 2:Well, james, chapter one in verse 14, says each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire is conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death. So sin happens as a process. It starts with something in the heart, and so I think that's the point you're making, is that you need to be on guard, because sometimes you can be. I don't have an intention of having an affair or crossing certain lines with this other woman, tension of having an affair or crossing a you know, certain lines with this, with this other woman. But if I start getting chummy and a little too close and maybe I'm setting it up for maybe I am strong now, maybe I'm not tempted now, but what if I get in a big fight with my wife? What?
Speaker 2:if things start getting really stressful at home. Uh, we've had a couple of kids and now things are on, uh, you know, kind of on the rocks and well, but things were always nice when I talked to so-and-so. Again, I'm speaking from just firsthand observation and trends. So, to answer that question, I feel like, yeah, it's kind of the devil's in the details. Like, do I have friends that are, that are women? Like, yes, I have friends, but do I have, like friend friends?
Speaker 3:You're not like calling them up and like, hey, let's go hang out Right, so a good illustration is Friday night.
Speaker 2:I went over to John's house and we played a little impromptu one-off Dungeons and Dragons and some of our regulars were gone, and sorry, Nate you live too far away, Otherwise we would invite you more.
Speaker 1:No, it's all right. Because he wasn't nerdy. We have to keep our story straight.
Speaker 3:Well, I got to start being nerdier.
Speaker 2:Some of our regulars couldn't make it, so John had his teenage son. He's a hoot. I like him. He's got a good sense of humor and he invited his wife, a little controversially, to play.
Speaker 1:His teenage son did yeah, it was controversial for James to have a wife right now. Generally, you know.
Speaker 2:I like a pretty manly lineup for Dungeons and Dragons but it was.
Speaker 2:It was actually kind of fun and Taylor was getting into it and and you know so we were all kind of joking together and she fit in well and that was really fun, like I consider her one of my friends. But then afterwards, like you know she did, did she do a shift that night before or something like that, I don't know she, she works overnight and she was tired. She went to bed like super early and when everyone else started to leave, john and I went out. And you know this always happens when I'm at John's house. I'm trying to leave and I'm getting texts from Jessica like where are you? And I'm like, well, I'm just out here talking to John. I'm trying to leave, but we're really having a good conversation here and so it's like John.
Speaker 2:Difference is like, yes, yes, I'm, I'm friends, she's one of my friends and, um, you know, we talk about Bible things in a group setting. Sometimes I try to give words of encouragement and all that, like there's a friendship there, but uh, I'm not going to sit out by my car with Taylor and her and I have you know this lengthy talk that goes on and on and on the way.
Speaker 2:I do with John, like there's a difference. So, yes, yes, I do have friends of that are male and female. I do have friends that are, that are women, but not in the same way as like either of you two guys I'm not going to go hang out with, and so I think it's important that we kind of make that distinction wrong at some point like, yeah, maybe, maybe it won't happen, you know this time.
Speaker 3:But if you make it a continual habit to get together with a friend of the opposite gender and you're married, then you're just putting yourself in in harm's way and I think it's just a matter of time. I think it's just a matter of time.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think it's important to, maybe we can bring our wives in on this conversation. This is something husbands and wives can have a conversation together. Like well, what do you expect? Like what? What do you think is crossing a line? You know, like, just like, even like simple things, like this is something actually. Something actually I've struggled with for a long time is I want to be one of those people that goes up and gives everybody a hug. Oh, I don't do that, but I'm afraid of how it'll be perceived and like I don't want to make someone uncomfortable. And then, you know, sometimes, like on a Sunday after preaching, I'm also kind of sweaty, so maybe they don't want to hug from me.
Speaker 3:No, that's a good point, though I feel like I have been awkward because I didn't hug you know a member of the opposite gender who we might be friends with, but I'm just like, I don't want to upset their spouse, I don't want to give the wrong impression, so I don't hug them. I wave.
Speaker 1:Shaking the hand of a lady sometimes is a little bit awkward. It's awkward as you just stand there and you want to know if I wave you want to know real power move.
Speaker 2:What's that? Pat a full grown adult on the top of their head.
Speaker 1:I try to think I think there's been friends and settings and certain people that I felt maybe comfortable giving a one arm hug to, you know kind of thing. I think that you know there probably are some differences in that. Right To the Cal's not a hugger but like Steve Johnson, he's a hugger, he's a two arm bear bear hugger. Right, certain people are and I I enjoy, you know, aspects of both. A lot of my male friends wouldn't.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't consider as you know, h both a lot of my male friends wouldn't.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't consider, as you know, huggers kind of like that.
Speaker 3:But you know some are like, you know half. You guys don't hug at dungeons and dragons no, but we call this that's called a grapple move.
Speaker 1:That's different, we do that when we're deer hunting all the time yeah, uh, that's something that I always kind of think about is affection towards the opposite sex in general, and when it comes to brethren, we're supposed to have a stronger you know, emotional feel and friendship towards them.
Speaker 1:And so you know, there are some people that I might, you know, hug, you know sidearm hug type thing, but it's usually not just that kind of thing, it's the compounded perspective of minimal boundaries. What kind of boundaries do they generally have with people when it comes to, like the Mike Pence role, you know, being alone with people and the kinds of conversations that they get into. If you're having a conversation with people and it gets really emotional and or it gets into venting about spouses and things, I feel like there's certain boundaries that you just need to be aware of and understand that you have. Maybe it's just not one thing, but whether or not you are very self-aware or socially aware enough with your spouse and how their feelings are. I think that that's one of the big things is. I have another stat here. I have another stat here. It says 37% of people report jealousy as a tension in romantic relationships because of friends of the opposite sex.
Speaker 1:And so like that says to me give a head pat to people or what's your comfortability level? And I think that it's smart, even if they say they're okay with it, to just have some general good boundaries that don't involve it, because people's opinions and thoughts change over time, especially with different people.
Speaker 2:I do think 1 Timothy 5 and verse 2 is probably one of those boundaries that's mentioned here and a good scripture to keep in mind in these interactions. It says do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers and notice here, younger women as sisters, with all purity. Yeah. So when I imagine this, even though I didn't grow up with a sister, I kind of relate this to when I started dating my dad, on the way out the door for my first like official date, he's like, hey, just pretend her dad is with you the whole time and behave that way. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay that I didn't have any intention of doing anything otherwise, but I thought that was a really good way to think about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well and that's not what my dad said.
Speaker 1:There's something to be said about this.
Speaker 1:There's it's harder.
Speaker 1:I think, from what I've seen and read, it's harder for men to have friends of the opposite sex than it is women, because, as you look at kids growing up, a lot of the times they become attracted to their friends that are of the opposite sex, a lot more sometimes than the women do.
Speaker 1:We see that in adolescence, somewhere around like the age of 14, puberty, yeah, puberty, um, around the age of 13 to to you know, and above, and so I think that it's a lot harder. Boys catch feelings towards girls of the opposite sex that are friends, more so, which is why they all get friend zoned all the time. Right, that's the. We have those terms, and so I think that it's just something to understand that that could happen to men, especially if maybe you're feeling like your emotional needs are not met and it becomes easy to to feel companionship towards people, and I think that we just need to have that kind of real understanding of how our brain's working and how our feelings are, and if that, if we're having that kind of feeling towards someone else, um, it's generally because we're not having that feeling where we need to have it.
Speaker 2:And that's why we need to go back and fix. I think self-awareness is a huge part yeah.
Speaker 1:Fix that thing at home. That's causing you to to do that. Maybe harder said than done, maybe depending upon the relationship that you're in, but I do think it's just important to not put those stumbling blocks ahead of you and have those strong boundaries Well self-aware, to not put those stumbling blocks ahead of you and have those strong boundaries.
Speaker 2:Well, self-awareness is a huge part of this too is you need to be honest with yourself and your interactions with a particular friend of the other gender, Like if you start finding yourself like fantasizing and don't read into that too much. But I mean it because, like again, I'm going off of trends I've seen, and a lot of times it starts with fantasizing about like what if I'd met you first before I met my, before I met my spouse? Like the life, the life I could have had with you? Yeah, it starts with that. The grass is green. That's what I mean by fantasizing.
Speaker 3:So don't don't go there. I didn't, I didn't mean it in a in a in a bad way.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just meant like so you meant it in a good way, I didn't not mean it in in a dirty kind of way either, like that's bad too, but in a more serious way, like if you find yourself at all like fantasizing or just thinking about, like what would life be like married to this person instead of my current spouse? Or if, if you start making this person you're confidant, that making this person your confidant, that's your spouse, yeah, that's your husband, that's your wife and, and you know, maybe some of your like, if you're a guy, maybe some of your guy friends you can confide in. But if it's a member of the opposite gender, I'm sorry. Like um, if you need help, you talk to a married couple like Jessica and I. We we've we've talked to people before like um, women struggling with situations or men struggling with situations. Like you know, we'll talk to people together as a couple, but, like you know, you're not going to talk to them one on one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm not going to go confide in someone else the way I do my wife or maybe a couple of my closest guy friends when I want to complain about my wife.
Speaker 1:The thing is, though, isn't that so much easier to do with things like? You have social media and you have Instagram, you see the best version of people and their spouses through pictures at Disneyland and pictures of people being with their kids, and oh, isn't he a great father? And so you see this kind of idealistic life of these people, and you go you think about man, if I was in that position with them, or put my picture on that, and and that's the thing that was you're seeing the best it is do you think that they don't have some core issues down you?
Speaker 1:know, down deep, like everyone does john?
Speaker 2:do you have the statistics on second?
Speaker 1:divorces a second? No, I don't have a look at that, but my point is is it's you want me to look at?
Speaker 2:No, no, Just because I'd be curious to know. Like you know, the idea of the grass is always greener, but the divorce rate, I imagine, is still fairly high for people.
Speaker 1:I'll look that up in about three seconds, but. But my point is is you can start then thinking about their lives as if it's this picture perfect kind of thing and or how they are, and then why aren't you like them? Yeah, you start doing this comparison thing that we comparison trap that we've talked about before, and when you get into that comparison trap, it's so much easier to then do what you just said, which was, you know and visualize a different life with someone, and you've already started down that path, because all it needs is an open door, and there's a lot of people out there looking opening their doors, looking for a reboot, especially at work and coworkers and people who have less restraint and morality to get in that way.
Speaker 2:Here's our Star Wars reference Don't give sin the high ground. Oh, I like that.
Speaker 1:Can I do a whole sermon episode on that, no matter how confident you are in your powers, even your new powers.
Speaker 2:If you have the high ground, you're going to win. So don't give sin the high ground. Don't put yourself at a disadvantage like that.
Speaker 3:I like what you referenced earlier, kyle, which I think you preached about this morning in your lesson, which is sin is a progression. It doesn't start with the sin. Typically it starts with the thought, and then that thought becomes maybe a conversation, and then maybe it becomes an action, and that conversation and that action are not necessarily sinful, but the end result of that is, you know, going to end up in sin, of that is, you know, gonna end up in sin, and so just just don't let the ball go over the hill and start rolling down, because it's just going to pick up speed and and it's going to get to a point where you, you can't stop.
Speaker 2:You can't stop, yep I found it okay.
Speaker 1:so it's 60 to 67% of second marriages end in divorce. It's 73 to 74% of third marriages that end in divorce. So if you let that as an option or that becomes that kind of scenario and the percentage I think grows, probably because there were boundaries that you had once up and those have now been crossed before and it's a lot harder to stay together. It's a lot easier to separate. We've made it that way in the world.
Speaker 3:My question is, like, if you're married and you have a friend of the opposite gender, like why, why Do you not get your social cup filled by friends of the same gender? I mean, like, what is the reason for you to have that friendship Options?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, not necessarily good, but I think in the world, and I would say outside of the church, I think it's a super common thing to have male, female, different. Yeah, and I think that that's some of that cake and eat it too, kind of mentality of people who have come from the world into the church and may not realize and understand that as boundaries.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But also as you're growing up. I mean when I grew up you know dating and everything was in preparation for marriage. Yeah, like that's why that's the point. And so having friends that were of the opposite sex generally that's why we kind of see those fade off over time. Like they, you end up being focused on the person that you're interested in dating and you kind of ignore your friends and your everything world is about that person, and generally people feel left out and jealous and or just kind of discarded and so they go find their own pair, bond, and so generally this kind of stuff fades off.
Speaker 1:And so if you're tightly clinging on to friendships and relationships and people during all that process, then I don't know.
Speaker 2:You make a good point, though, nate, as far as like what are you? What are you? What are you after If you're not satisfied? You know we talk about putting up boundaries, and the point is you don't go right up to the edge of the boundary. The boundary is there, but you don't walk on the line, and the point is because what's in bounds should be sufficient. You know your marriage should satisfy, but then, on the other side of that, I would also add to your point, nate, what it says in Hebrews 13, 4 and many other places marriage is honorable among all in the bed, undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers, god will judge. So on the other side, I would say to the question of why pursue these kinds of friendships and relationships, you're playing with fire, I mean that sounds like you know from God.
Speaker 2:Like is that a threat? It's a promise? Like, if you cross these boundaries and God says I'm not going to overlook that one, that's a big deal to me and God is.
Speaker 3:I mean the one. The major danger of hanging out with the opposite gender is sexual sin, and that is one that God talks about a lot throughout scripture and in the New Testament. It's like be careful, this could happen.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, what about? I can see two scenarios here and then we can. I guess we can progress on but two scenarios. One there is a single person in friend groups and everything, but they and they need like help, um and um, either from a man you know or someone that that they don't have in their life, and so how might what would be a good suggestion into supporting their needs and helping them out?
Speaker 2:Look, I've been in situations like this where Jessica and I both just like if there's something that I can do to help out where there's no man, I'll go and do it. Jessica will come with me and find something else to do, like in the house with with with the woman, and so there's ways to get around that where you can kind of like you can still, you can still be there and be supportive and be the friend. You know I'm still a friend to you, know all the women in my life, all the women in the church. They're still my friends, just not in the same way like you guys are. But there's ways to be that friend, to be that support, while still being accountable and reputable.
Speaker 1:My other question is what about someone who listens to this podcast and say my spouse trusts me and I don't see any problem with this, and I don't see any problem with this? I can imagine someone thinking I've had friends of you know opposite sex for all my life and I still do and I'm okay with that, and my spouse trusts me and we're all okay with that.
Speaker 2:So is that a problem? Everyone that's blown off fingers in a firework accident got away with it several times before that.
Speaker 1:So you're saying it's a zero-sum game? It will always lead to issues and someone can't be the exception to the rule.
Speaker 3:Not if you're a eunuch. Step, step step, step, step, step.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it will inevitably lead to I'm just saying it certainly increases the odds. Yeah, and again, it's not just about you know, I can't control myself, it's, it's well. What does this do to? To percept, you know, the people's perception of your character.
Speaker 3:What message am I sending to to others?
Speaker 1:I think that would be a good podcast to kind of talk about this being above reproach and I and I think that that's probably we're not used to that Like a lot of times it's like, hey, well, just don't cross that line, but sometimes it's even getting near that line or making people think that you dance on that line, and so sometimes we're talking about removing.
Speaker 1:I don't want to bring ill reproach on that person. So I'm going to create boundaries so that no one thinks ill of them as well as myself. But I care about them and so I don't want anyone to think that they possibly are trying to like, woo a husband away from their man or do anything. So I'm not going to lean in to that possibility of bringing reproach upon them. So creating boundaries can do that, but I don't know if there is scenarios in our lives that we care about that as much. Do you know what I'm trying to say? The idea of being above reproach is what does that look like in other aspects of our life? I think that would be a good conversation. Next episode maybe.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not a complete Exhorter podcast episode.
Speaker 3:If we don't throw out a future episode that we may or may not do in the next couple of years.
Speaker 2:I was just going to sum up my thoughts from Proverbs 23 in verse 10 that says Do not remove the ancient landmark, nor enter the fields of the fatherless, for their Redeemer is mighty. He will plead their cause against you. I know that's talking about. Don't go take advantage of someone and steal their property.
Speaker 2:Don't move the ancient land boundaries in Israel is probably what that's talking about, but I think that's the general idea here is that in life, and in particular in this example of marriage, there are some boundaries that just should be there, that should be respected. It's for your safety and for other people's safety, to protect you and to protect their reputations. Ultimately, you should focus on cultivating the best relationship possible with your spouse. Make that, I mean. Yeah, I might have some guy friends I confide in sometimes, but my wife is my chief confidant. She is the one that is my other half. We're two lives that have been merged into one and when it comes to friendships, I think give your effort and energy to friendships of the same gender and just put up some safe you know boundaries and guards to define the parameters of your relationships with people of the opposite gender.
Speaker 3:So you would vote for Mike Pence if he ran again for office? That's another question. Oh, okay, that's another question. All right, again for office, that's another question, that's another question, kyle.
Speaker 3:this was a great episode because I think it's practical and it's applying some wisdom to our relationships, and especially those with the opposite gender. So thanks for bringing this up today, kyle. If you found value in this episode, please share it with a friend, like subscribe, and join us for part two of this episode about reputability and being above reproach at some point in the future. Real, real, real quick, real quick question are you guys doing pickleball tonight, are you? Can I go anytime? What does my wife do with the kids? Um well, what do the other wives do with?
Speaker 1:the kids kind of like hang out and play around and then we generally have like there's benches there, so it's like a whole like like like riser benches. Uh, who wants to start kyle, you want to go? Sure, all right, it's a little more lighthearted. We'll have some fun with this one, I'm sure. Yeah, mine is infidelity in the workplace mine is no big deal.
Speaker 3:Mine is death.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's a little infidelity in the workplace.
Speaker 3:Oh, the mic pincer, what.
Speaker 1:Mike Pintrell what's that?
Speaker 3:oh, you have notes. I don't have notes.
Speaker 1:I knew what he was doing so I wanted to have some ideas. I saw the Mike Pintrell. I just didn't know what that was are you recording this? You should be recording this I am. My job is to bring the empirical evidence. Oh, that's right. So I just brought stats. I have stats.
Speaker 3:This time I was thinking about maybe making fun of you. Yeah, well, that's good.
Speaker 1:That's always good. Okay, kyle Kyle, kyle Kyle. Welcome to the Zorder podcast. Welcome the Zorder. Something feels weird.
Speaker 2:Sure yeah.
Speaker 3:So 1.
Speaker 2:Thessalonians, chapter 4, I think, introduces a principle All right, bring those scriptures out man.
Speaker 3:He's showing us his outline here.
Speaker 1:He's got notes made Notes, don't lie.
Speaker 3:You went to chat JBT and said make me some.
Speaker 2:Why is your Bible open to Song of Solomon? You're not going to. He did not follow the Pence rule up in the Song of Solomon you're not going to. He did not follow the Pence rule.
Speaker 3:I was looking at the last chapter of Ecclesiastes, but oh okay, we can do a Song of Solomon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, solomon did not follow the Pence rule.
