74 - Disagreeing with Elders

How do we navigate disagreement with church leadership while maintaining respect and unity? This thought-provoking episode tackles the delicate balance of honoring elders while addressing legitimate concerns.

We begin by examining our fundamental relationship with elders. Rather than waiting for them to reach out, we explore how members can take initiative in building meaningful connections through prayer, gratitude, and genuine interest in their lives as fellow Christians. These established relationships create the foundation for healthier communication when differences arise.

Whether you're currently navigating a challenging situation with church leadership or simply want to develop healthier patterns of interaction, this episode offers practical wisdom for approaching differences in ways that strengthen rather than divide the body of Christ. How might your congregation grow stronger if disagreements became opportunities for understanding rather than division?

Contact the Exhorter Podcast

• Email us at media@clovischurchofchrist.org
• Find us on Facebook or Instagram

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:06

Welcome to the Exhorter podcast, where it is our aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. Thank you for tuning in this week, John. I'm really excited to hear what we're going to talk about today.

Speaker 2 0:19

Yeah, maybe you'll talk about it again, because we just re-recorded this.

Speaker 3 0:23

I don't think I've talked about this before. Would you bring it to Don't tell them how amateur we this? I don't think I've talked about this before.

Speaker 2 0:25

Would you bring it to? Don't tell them how amateur we are Sometimes. Oh, I'll bet even the pros Okay no, so if I'm engineering over here and then I'm leading a topic, sometimes I can't do two at once, so we might have gone through a little bit of this Good that you weren't chewing gum also Exactly Now.

Speaker 2 0:40

Today we're going to talk about disagreeing with elders and I felt like I was why don't I do it? You know I'm not employed by an elder or the sudden law of an elder, so maybe I have a little more distance Now. It should be a positive conversation towards the elders but maybe kind of put us as members on our heels a little bit and to kind of question the way that we engage with elders and how we talked about them and how we talk to them. Right. And before we get into the actual topic of disagreeing with elders, I just want to kind of briefly talk about the relationships we should be having with elders and because that might frame the type of relationship we walk into with them right, you might have an attitude of thinking well, they never.

Speaker 1 1:28

I don't know my elders very well. They never invite me into their home, where they should be hospitable. Yeah, is that the kind of attitude you might be talking?

Speaker 2 1:34

about.

Speaker 1 1:34

Like how do we address that we?

Speaker 2 1:36

have a number of verses that talk about how we are supposed to. We're called to respect and honor our elders. We have verses that talk about our duty to obey and submit, because they watch over our souls.

Speaker 2 1:49

We are to pray for them and we are to imitate their faith and seek to grow alongside them, and sometimes, when we technically, we should actually have the same relationship to them as we do other members, because they are members at the end of the day as well, but maybe sometimes because of their position, because of their work, they feel a little more, a little less approachable or a little bit, you know, in the work, and maybe we don't have those kinds of relationships, those close relationships that we have with our other brethren or friends or family, right, unless they are like this congregation, maybe family, because there's a lot of families around here. So, into that idea, do we find it difficult to have these kinds of relationships with elders? You guys weren't always in the position you are right now with elders. Did you ever find it difficult to have relationships, close relationships, with elders?

Speaker 3 2:43

find it difficult to have relationships, close relationships, with elders. So I mean, obviously it's pretty easy with some of them because they live four minutes away and I am related to them.

Speaker 1 2:53

I married their daughter.

Speaker 3 2:54

But I think that it can be challenging. It can be challenging to have, you know, close relationships with elders just for the sake of time, it's, it's we're all very busy, you know it's difficult to get together. And and then also, just, you know, elders are people. They have different personalities and some people you click better with than than others, and some elders you're going to get along with better than others. You're going to find it easier to talk to them, or whatever it might be. And so you, you know, you build a better relationship with them than, uh, than another elder, and that's you know. I think that's just kind of natural. Um, but I would say the biggest barrier is, for me, is just time.

Speaker 2 3:38

Yeah, I mean I. I could imagine, though, if talking to those listening, if you have found it difficult in the past. I'm curious as to you know. We'd like to hear back from you If there's reasons why you feel it may be difficult to have those relationships. I think sometimes it could just be there's some intimidation there. Oh, yeah, and then a lot of the times they're kind of dealing with, like if you're on speed dial, if you're on an elder speed dial, there might be something going on.

Speaker 2 4:08

That's not a good thing, right? Probably, I don't know, it's a good thing, but, like a lot of times they deal with, um, trying to keep the sheep you know on the path you know, and so, um, maybe those that, uh, you know, no news is good news kind of thing, you know, if you don't have, you know, a lot of conversations with them, I mean that that are really that technically, that could be actually a good thing.

Speaker 1 4:24

Sometimes there's a temptation to almost be guarded, Like I don't want to say the wrong thing and get in trouble or incriminate myself.

Speaker 2 4:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1 4:34

And there's a temptation to think that their work is done behind closed doors. And if someone goes into a room with the elders it's because they're in trouble and you almost view them as someone to like keep away from. And if they don't talk to you, then that means that that you're not a problem sheep, if that makes sense and and that's not a healthy model and elders can work on avoiding that perception. But even on on the member side we can be proactive. We can be upset and think maybe they need to invite us over or they need to be more friendly, or we can just take a more proactive approach and say I don't know the elders very well, or I'm intimidated by them, or I don't really know what they do, and so to fix that, I'm going to invite them into my home, I'm going to take steps on my end to get to know them better.

Speaker 3 5:23

I like that idea of like taking responsibility for that relationship that I have with the elders, because you got to think that they've got a lot on their plate, a lot on their mind, at least in our congregation, you know there's several hundred members, and so are you know, are they always thinking about little Nate? No, they're probably not so. So then, if I think it's important to have a quality relationship with them, then I need to be the one to jump out there and take charge on that matter.

Speaker 2 5:54

No, I think that's a really great point. So what are some practical ways that we could go about building those relationships? Show up at their house.

Speaker 3 6:03

Uninvited, at any point of the day, anytime. Yeah, say hey, you got food. That's a way to, and then point to the Bible verse that says be hospitable.

Speaker 2 6:10

Be hospitable.

Speaker 3 6:11

Yeah, hurry up, let me in, okay.

Speaker 1 6:13

Marry their daughter.

Speaker 3 6:15

That would work too. He was not an elder at the time. There was no the potential what other practical ways.

Speaker 2 6:26

You know, we have group meetings um I there's an elder in every group meeting and that's an opportunity to go and visit with them and get to know them.

Speaker 3 6:35

You know, and that's already pre-arranged for you for a lot of us um take the time to um, to talk to them, you know, just even even a church, and I, I think, also showing gratitude for what they do, because you know we talked about, some of the things that they do are behind closed doors. I'll bet there's a lot of decisions that they make that they probably think deeply about and maybe it causes some stress for them and they have to make those decisions. So I'm grateful a lot of time that I'm not the one making those hard decisions. I'm glad that we have other, wiser people to do that.

Speaker 2 7:15

And I'm thanking them for what they do. Yeah, and I think that if you ever received a card from someone just out of the blue there's some members that send birthday cards out, or you know, sometimes when you receive a card kind of out of the blue, it takes you kind of off guard there and you're just like, wow, it feels good to be encouraged and appreciated by someone else and that was a very little thing that someone did, but it had a big impact. And so when it comes to, you know, putting yourself out there, there's lots of different ways you can do that. Even not walking up to someone, you can pray for them, you can send cards showing the appreciation and, honestly, that goes a very long way with a lot of people. It's bound to go a lot of way with elders as well. They are people, amen.

Speaker 3 7:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2 8:01

So, yeah, think about that. I encourage you as we get into this world of disagreement with elders is first, you know, think about how well you know your elders and what are the relationships you have with them and how are you fostering a positive relationship with them? Relationship and to focus your life, as the scripture says, like in 1 Thessalonians, 5, 12 through 13,. We are supposed to respect those who labor among us, esteem them highly in love and recognize that they are over us in the Lord. And how are we showing the gratitude for that and obedience to the position that God has for them? So that's a big responsibility.

Speaker 1 8:44

I always try to approach this from the standpoint of am I making their task of oversight more difficult, or am I helping them in this? In this task, am I? Am I becoming a headache to them? And and so you know not not to pick on poor attendance. That's an easy target, but by being absent it makes me a source of concern. And I'm privileged to sit in on the monthly elders meetings and, much like Anakin Skywalker, I'm appointed to that council but I am not granted the rank of master. But I'm very fortunate that they include me Not at every point. There are times where it's elder only and they let me go, but I'm grateful to see behind the scenes at all the work they do.

Speaker 1 9:34

And when someone is absent, when someone is not visible, it does become a point of great concern for these men, and I wish everyone could see just how many phone calls and visits and just how much they reach out, even uncomfortable phone calls, but necessary ones because of the concern for the sheep in this flock. And so I try to think about that. If there's an issue coming up, would it be better to simply proactively reach out to the elders and seek their guidance, seek their help, rather than let something blow up and become a problem much bigger than if I just went to them early. And so I'm always trying to think of ways how could I make their life easier, and you reference 1 Thessalonians 5. I love this little detail here 1 Thessalonians 5 and verse 13,. Esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake, and we always stop there. But the rest of the verse reads be at peace among yourselves.

Speaker 3 10:35

That'll make their job a whole lot easier.

Speaker 1 10:37

Yeah. And so when I say get the elders involved proactively, I don't just mean dump off everything on them. If I can handle something and simply take care of it myself, like a quarrel between me and someone else, if I can, just you know, I need to go deal with this rather than just gossip about it or make the situation worse or ignore it until it becomes a rift between me and this person. Now the elders have to get involved and it becomes a big problem. I'll go fix that problem so it doesn't become a bigger problem that the elders have to fix. So we need to be at peace with ourselves and that starts on an individual basis. You know Matthew 18 is that process of discipline. When you see your brother sin, go and confront them, go and rebuke them. And just because we have an eldership, that doesn't mean the first. You know that Jesus didn't say these are the steps. Take two or three witnesses, then take it to the whole church. Unless you have elders, then you can just ignore this whole process.

Speaker 2 11:27

Go tell them to the elders, yeah go tell them to the elders. A lot of elder work is going through motions that members didn't go through I will get the elders involved.

Speaker 1 11:41

If that's the needed step, if it's proactive, I'll get them involved and ask for their guidance. Or if it's something I could and should just handle myself, then I will. That also helps the elders.

Speaker 3 11:53

I really like that question, just kind of framing things how can I make the elder's job better, easier, like that. I think that's a question we could ask in any situation where we're considering, you know what to do spiritually or whatever how can I make the elder's job easier? Because it is a it's a challenging, challenging role to be in.

Speaker 2 12:14

Well, enough of all this positive stuff, let's get into the disrespect.

Speaker 1 12:17

I'm trying the questioning Next week how to make a preacher's job easier.

Speaker 2 12:23

I got a long list. I don't really have time for that.

Speaker 3 12:26

Don't sleep during the sermon.

Speaker 2 12:31

So is there a right or wrong way to question elders? When should we New question Elders in a house?

Speaker 1 12:37

You know John a text that comes to my mind completely out of the blue and all entirely on my own, is 1 Timothy 5. Where was that verse? Again, John 5.1. Yeah, do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, Younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity, and that's the idea of you know. For the work they do, I respect them because of the burden of that task and that accountability they have to. God is watching over people's souls, and so I need to give them some leeway.

Speaker 1 13:11

When I was a child, I would argue with my dad and I would be disrespectful about it. I would throw a fit, I would whine, I would cry, I'd get upset and I couldn't really articulate my point of view, but I would get upset. As I grew older, I learned to respectfully disagree with my dad, but in a way that showed him like I'm not going to disobey you. I just want to express my perspective and give my reasons, make my petition, but I'll respect you. You know, whatever outcome there is, you know, I learned to approach my dad in a way that was respectful and so when he makes that comparison to you know, treat him like a father. I think that's. That's a way to. If I'm going to have a disagreement with with an elder or the elders, I'm certainly not going to talk about my grievances to other people. I'll go to them respectfully.

Speaker 2 14:07

Yeah, there's a dignity we think we have with our own fathers and the idea that even if we disagree with something, we don't necessarily want to put him on blast. That's not the goal. And Philippians 2.14 also says do all things without grumbling and disputing, so there's a right way to do that.

Speaker 1 14:25

Let me emphasize again do all things without grumbling.

Speaker 2 14:29

Now. So the verse you mentioned Kyle 1 Timothy 5.1, it already shows us that there are opportunities where you might need to rebuke someone. So the question of should we, I think is identified in other verses as well. Yes, there are times where we might disagree with an elder but we might need to question. But we are given lots of verses like this that will show us how to do it.

Speaker 1 14:53

Yeah, even Paul warned and I think there's some argument that could be made about different perspectives. But it is possible that when Paul said to the elders of Ephesus in Acts, chapter 20, that from among you ravenous wolves will, how does he say that? It's Acts chapter 20, I think it's like verse 29, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Is the among you from the church in Ephesus or from among those elders? A lot of people interpret it from the elders themselves There'll be savage wolves and so elders are not above.

Speaker 1 15:30

we don't appoint them because they're perfect, Blameless. The chief characteristic in first Timothy three or Titus one is not perfect or without flaw, not the same thing. So these men are not above making mistakes, yeah.

Speaker 2 15:44

Well, and then it gets into how we would do this. Obviously, we have verses that we've already talked about. As far as the respect that we actually should have them, and we should afford that with anyone that we're going to bring disagreements with, it doesn't matter if it is a disagreement on doctrine or disagree Like a lot of people then like to, you know, quantify or clarify these types of disagreements. Well, this one's on doctrine. This isn't on their wisdom or judgment on something right that may be afforded to them. I don't like the time of day.

Speaker 1 16:19

We meet on Sunday, you know so I think we have a disagreement about that one. I think we should meet once on Sunday morning. They think we should meet again in the evening, and a lot of churches have that debate, and that's one of those things where you're going to get differences of opinion, but there's no now. Another one would be like the Lord's Supper and Lord's Supper in the evening, but we'll have that discussion for another podcast.

Speaker 2 16:40

But do you think there's a difference in how we, or if we disagree on something that's doctrine versus something that is their judgment on something wisdom related?

Speaker 3 16:53

I think that there is a difference, but I think that we should come to them with an attitude of humility and the belief that you know, I'm not perfect, I don't know everything you know, maybe there's some information here I don't know or understand and not coming in and like it's got to be this way and you guys are wrong. That just doesn't go very far.

Speaker 2 17:17

Yeah Well, we're told to do that already with members in Philippians 2, 3. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in all things count others more significant than yourself.

Speaker 3 17:28

So we're always supposed to do that to others, let alone the elders Wise men, and so if they truly are, then we should come to them as that, like you're wiser than I am, because that's how you're in this role, right, and then we should show respect to that, even as a collective. What do you mean?

Speaker 2 17:52

They're all men as you said before you know, and maybe some have more experience than others. Sure, and we may have one as a preacher, or one has been an elder longer, but as a collective eldership they definitely have a lot more wisdom than most would have. Right. So I mean as a collective in general, just the way that we approach them as a whole.

Speaker 3 18:16

And you know, if they are doing their job and in our congregation I think they are they probably have more information than I have. Right, you know, maybe not always, but most of the time they probably have more information than I have on a given issue. And so anytime I we want to bring something to that, I think that we should bring it to them in in humility.

Speaker 2 18:36

And also, you know you don't want to shove the Bible in people's faces, but but you want to make sure that whatever opinion or idea you have is, uh, standing on firm script of times we can get, we can conflate our motivations, and what I mean, that is, is our motivation to be in unity or is our motivation to be right?

Speaker 3 19:11

And that's a great question.

Speaker 2 19:12

Maybe we should ask ourselves that before we ever decide hey, I'm going to meet with an elder.

Speaker 3 19:15

Why is it that?

Speaker 1 19:16

I have this disagreement.

Speaker 3 19:18

Why is it that I have this disagreement with them and what harm could I potentially cause if I bring it to them or, or sure like?

Speaker 2 19:27

why do I feel like I? Why do I feel now it gets into the question of conceit and of self-focus why do I feel this is so important to take the time to either have a just have? A disagreement with with them, or hopefully we're going to get and talk about it a little bit. Talk to others about it right, why do?

Speaker 2 19:46

I think it's that important. I understand if it's on doctrine. You know we have certain ways of dealing with that. But if it's not about doctrine and if there is wisdom preference judgment in there, what does it say about me believing that I it is important and I am important enough to make the final statement?

Speaker 3 20:07

maybe a question we should judgment before, before we decide to bring it to the elders, is is this going to matter in five years? Okay, yeah, you know, because if it's, if it's not and it's not a matter of doctrine, it's just a matter of doctrine, it's just a matter of opinion. You know, maybe I don't say anything about that.

Speaker 2 20:25

We believe we need to rebuke them based upon that sin.

Speaker 3 20:28

Well, the Matthew 18 passage. You know where it says we go to them first. I think that is definitely applicable, right.

Speaker 1 20:35

It doesn't come in on you to go to them directly.

Speaker 2 20:38

Yeah, and 1 Timothy 5 also talks about how accusations require what Two or three witnesses Witnesses, and they should not be falsely accused or undermined. I mean we have scripture about this.

Speaker 3 20:48

That's step two of the process right If they don't believe you, then you take two or three witnesses.

Speaker 2 20:52

Okay, so then you just follow that process as long as you have the scripture behind that, you should be able to come to them with the righteous indignation to tell them you're wrong.

Speaker 3 21:04

John is pointing at me vehemently.

Speaker 2 21:08

What is the point in that? Is it to? What is the goal? Is the goal to unify? Is the goal to encourage and admonish? What is the end goal? Is it to just rip them down and believe?

Speaker 2 21:20

that okay, well, you're not qualified to be an elder. I need to get you out of there. It's my job to do that. Or is it to help correct what we believe is something in error? And I think that most of the time where we have these kind of issues is people aren't one, following scripture and going about it the right way, but, two, they're just not going right to that elder and talking to them with love the first time. And I think when you do, they are just not going right to that elder and talking to them with love the first time. Yeah, and I think when you do that, I think that that's where you're going to get the most the best outcome yeah, and or corrected, because sometimes we're wrong.

Speaker 2 21:50

Sometimes, we have a different idea about what's going on.

Speaker 3 21:53

Yes or we believe.

Speaker 2 21:55

They believe something that they don't, you know. A lot of times that's the case, or someone we heard said something.

Speaker 3 22:02

Oh yeah, don't you know? A lot of times that's that's the case, or someone we heard said something. So, oh yeah, I know someone recently who came to me, uh, with an idea or belief and and uh, I said, well, go talk to that, go talk to that person, go go find out, like if that's true, yeah, and it was don't make a big decision based on on hearsay. Go go talk to them first.

Speaker 2 22:22

Um, so I, I think that that's absolutely so that's when we, that's when we shouldn't trust that information and verify. Second, we should, yeah, yeah, we should definitely verify the information we're getting before we uh place too much trust and that's the purpose behind that.

Speaker 3 22:35

Uh, if, if uh an elder is accused, you know, make sure you bring two or three witnesses, right? Yeah, we want to make sure that whatever's coming, there's some substantiation.

Speaker 1 22:45

Maybe let's take this a step further. What if an eldership shows a pattern of decision-making that the congregation feels is detrimental, harmful and in the eyes of, we'll say, a majority? This is going to get a little messy here in this illustration, but is there grounds Like? I guess where I'm coming at is the perspective I'm coming at this with is what if, to appoint elders, god gives us the qualifications, god gives us the character description 1 Timothy 3 and Titus, chapter 1. So it's a very objective set of qualities, but it is very subjective as to deciding whether or not a man fits those characteristics. What if the congregation no longer has that confidence that the eldership is looking out for them? What if the decisions show a pattern of detrimental behavior and the congregation no longer feels, as a whole, these men are not qualified? Is there a justification for saying well, as a church, we no longer feel you are qualified. Is there like a recall or an I don't want to say impeachment? That sounds too political here.

Speaker 2 23:59

But I also wonder like how does that happen that way? Because you might see other congregations you know come and go through different processes.

Speaker 1 24:06

I kind of maintain that premise though.

Speaker 2 24:08

But how do we organize? Do we send a flyer around? Do you all agree with this, that we need to get rid of the elders?

Speaker 1 24:13

Like how do you do that?

Speaker 2 24:13

without the gossip and the infighting. Appointing elders is kind of process that no two churches do, that process exactly the same.

Speaker 1 24:27

So I'm not saying it would be smooth or easy, but but I would say that it would probably need to start the same way as Matthew and Timothy, you know, tell us is yeah, and as soon as you get a 51-49 majority, you know quote, unquote majority or does it have to be unanimous that everyone Did?

Speaker 3 24:36

the congregation in Corinth have elders. That's a good question.

Speaker 2 24:40

I asked you about that the other day.

Speaker 1 24:42

I'm suspect of it because Paul never addresses them he never rebuked them specifically for letting something happen. Philippians, chapter 1 talks about its address to the bishops and the deacons, as well as the saints that are in Philippi. In Corinthians he doesn't have that In other places. He does address the elders In Corinth. He does not.

Speaker 3 25:03

Elders corinth, he does not I didn't mean to derail us I just thought that there was a connection there derailed us with oh, okay, with the, the.

Speaker 2 25:12

Yeah, how do we get rid of elders, um, I? I think at the end of the day though we've said this before the word long-suffering has a connotation to it, and it has a connotation that it's not something that happens overnight. When you have disagreements or you don't see eye to eye with brethren that you say, I guess this is not going to happen and we're not best friends anymore and we just end it. I don't think those situations happen overnight, and when they do, something else is wrong.

Speaker 1 25:42

Yes, it should be a huge red flag if if right it's. If there's not been a long pattern of prayer, of of studying with, of open discussion, if this is just a reaction if this is just a reaction or an overreaction to one thing, you don't like that the elders chose that's more on you, yeah, but if it's a long pattern of of behavior from the elders that you feel is detrimental, or I mean, and certainly when it's a doctrinal disagreement or sin, a matter of sin in their lives. That's a lot more clear.

Speaker 1 26:16

I guess I just want to bring out the point is that if we're going to talk about challenging or confronting elders, we need to understand they deserve all the respect and that probably should be the main takeaway from our audience. But I also I just wanted to explore the other side of that coin a little bit and just kind of remind everyone that it's not a lifetime appointment either, and by no means am I saying this is the ideal process. I'm just kind of thinking through this that if we decide these men are qualified based on our observance of their behavior, it seems fair to me that there could also be that if they no longer, if they lose faith in the congregation, that they are no longer blameless.

Speaker 2 26:55

I think it's our responsibility and we're all accountable to making sure that we're all serving Christ.

Speaker 1 27:00

Something I was pondering.

Speaker 2 27:01

No, and I get that, and let's get to the core of some of this, though, is most what happens that I see very seldom does someone have a dispute towards an elder and actually take it to the elder. A lot of times what happens is we have a dispute or we don't like something that the elders or elder has decided and we want to go get confirmation through peers, we gripe or we gripe about it. That never is the solution, and I hear often when these things over the years have happened, where it's are we questioning the elders now Like what's going on? The conversation just kind of evolves to that, and I feel like that gets into the. How should we talk about the elders is also an important part to this. It's the way we speak to elders, both privately, in front of our children, matters greatly, because our words should be filled with respect and we should avoid gossip and slander. And, honestly, how does it affect our kids the way we talk about people In general, but specifically?

Speaker 3 28:02

about the elders. Oh well, kids say specifically about the elders. Oh well, kids are like mimicry machines. However you talk about someone or the words you use, they are going to use those too, and whatever you say in front of them is going to shape their view of that person.

Speaker 2 28:19

I mean, you are the person that has the most influence on your kids in their Proverbs 22, train up the children as they should go.

Speaker 3 28:25

And the best way to lead? The best way to lead is by example, and and whether or not you like it, and whether or not your example is good, you are leading by example. So if you are talking bad about anybody, be it even the elders, then your kids are probably going to follow that example.

Speaker 2 28:44

And maybe that's a litmus test too. What is my approach to the elders? Am I negative? Look at how your kids think and talk about the elders. So I should ask my kids what they think of the elders Yours might be a little young, but if I ask what my kids think of the elders and everything, if I get some negativity, I'm wondering are they getting that from me?

Speaker 3 29:06

Oh, sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 29:07

Is it really their own perspective?

Speaker 1 29:08

Yeah, I mean they're like 13, you know, does my eight-year-old have their own perspective?

Speaker 2 29:12

I think that might be kind of a litmus test too. Maybe I'm criticizing the elders in maybe the privacy of my own home still in a way that is negatively affecting. It's not appropriate because how the kids learn it's like an analogy of talking bad about a kid's teacher they're going to start to disrespect.

Speaker 3 29:32

That teacher.

Speaker 2 29:33

The teacher and the school and the idea of school. Yeah, what do you think the outcome of talking natively about elders is? They'll have a disproportionate relationship to the church and God, and that's not what we want for them. Because I mean, growing up I saw a lot of people who did not have that kind of core belief and faith and trust in the church, and primarily because they weren't shown that maybe by their parents and I see that also as a parent with my kids at school, because my kids once had a teacher and the teachers. I didn't really like that teacher and maybe that teacher kind of had a silly kind of a name and maybe I kind of messed with that name a little bit. And then I would say something like I give them my own little nickname and then we're out and about at like an open house or something like this and Luke, my five-year-old, just says, oh, hey, look, and says that name and I'm like, oh, okay.

Speaker 1 30:34

Oopsies. It has the unintended effect and it is subtly teaching them to disrespect or disregard authority figures.

Speaker 2 30:44

And so we need to be careful. It's not just about how we talk about elders in front of our kids, but I do think that has a big impact on them.

Speaker 1 30:54

Well, one thing I wonder, a phrase that's always puzzled me in Acts, chapter 20, coming back to the elders at Ephesus Acts, chapter 20 and verse 28,. Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood. The Holy Spirit made you overseers. What does that look like Now? Is this something like when they separated Matthias and who? Was the other guy they put forward no one Was it Justice.

Speaker 1 31:28

No one remembers the guy they didn't pick. Yeah, pax 1. Yeah, I remember Matthias, though Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed. That's the problem. He has three different names. Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justice. Ah yeah.

Speaker 3 31:41

Pick one, pick one name Joseph Barsabbamed Justice. Pick one, pick one name Joseph R Savage.

Speaker 1 31:43

Justice. Is this a situation like that where it's like, hey, we've kind of picked some guys, but now cast lots and we'll let God choose? Was it something like that where Paul, as an apostle, went there and the Holy Spirit directed him? Or is there some application to today that we could look at the men appointed as elders here? And even though we had a hand in that selection, the qualifications were handed down from?

Speaker 3 32:07

the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1 32:08

Yeah, absolutely, and there's an indirect way where we could say these men were selected by the Holy Spirit through some of our judgment, but it was the Holy Spirit that identified the kind of men to look for. And so we need to be careful when, if we think about them in that light. Chosen by the Holy Spirit of God, they're fallible. They might make choices that we don't understand. We need to be patient because they're in a challenging, sometimes emotionally draining role and they have that accountability that we're free of that worry, so we might not think or make the same judgments because we're not coming at it from the same perspective. And when we slander or talk negatively or grumble or complain to others or to our children, well, there's an indirect effect of slandering the Holy Spirit too. Now look, there's been men that have been appointed to the office of eldership before that had no business being there. Sometimes the judgment of the congregation was just plain off, like that. That happens. So I don't want to prove too much with this, I just just a thought that came to mind.

Speaker 2 33:15

Honestly, personally, you know, I have had, or in early my early life I have had negative interactions with an elder and I think with different parents or different circumstances. It could have really affected my perspective of authority in the church. It could have affected my perspective of the church in general and I'm lucky I mean I'm glad that I had parents that kind of helped me go through that situation and I feel like I have a healthy perspective about it. Also, this isn't a topic to say as a deacon who works a lot with the elders, there's a lot of things that I propose that I have a thought or feeling about. Maybe it should work a certain way and they disagree or they want to try something different, and it doesn't really always change my perspective about it. I still think maybe I'm right in the way that I was proposing. So there's a temptation for me, because of the amount of access that I have, to question their judgment and to be begrudging about it. And I do look at the fact that as deacons we're here to serve tables right, we're here to support them and to help out and there's a lot that we always don't know and we have to lean on their judgment and, like Kyle said, there's authority from God to have a certain perspective about their role and to look at them. Another verse in this area would be Ephesians 4, 29. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as good for the building up. If it fits the occasion it may give grace to those who hear. Our words should be uplifting and grace-filled and not divisive. So, just like with our kids, with our peers, with other members, always know that a group thing happens as soon as you start in on something someone agrees with you. And now you're having a conversation that is negatively charged against people who God has set in position of authority, and that's not right. And, like I say, if we do have those grievances and we do have those ideas, absolutely talk to them, take them to them. A lot of times they'll understand and or they'll ask you to study about it a little bit more. They'll look at it a little more deeply.

Speaker 2 35:50

Before we leave here, I would just say I would challenge you to think about this a little more deeply. How are you interacting with elders If you have disagreements? How are you talking about those disagreements with them, or are you talking about with others? Are you talking about it with your wife, in front of your kids. Are you framing them and their role in the right light that should be framed, and are you trusting them? Are you doing this with love? Are you approaching them in the right ways?

Speaker 2 36:20

Think about this week, Maybe reach out to an elder this week, thank them, pray for them or just get to know them better, start developing those relationships with them so that a lot of times maybe you'll even sidestep some of these disagreements you might have in the future because you've gotten to know where their heart is and where their focus is. But if it is doctrinal, we are supposed to keep them accountable. We're supposed to keep all of us accountable and we have steps in the Bible to help us look at the right ways to approach those situations. And make sure you're doing that and not spreading gossip with other brethren.

Speaker 3 36:55

Well, john, thank you for that topic. That's not one maybe that we think about all the time, but it does come up. Not one maybe that we think about all the time, but it does come up. And it's important to know how we should treat the elders and then how we should discuss things with them, especially when we disagree. So, thank you for bringing that to us today and if you, listening, have found this beneficial or valuable, or you, uh, you think might find it valuable, like subscribe, share it with them and, uh, we'll see you next week.

Speaker 1 37:34

Welcome to the exhorter podcast, where it is our aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical dialogue.

Speaker 3 37:45

I believe it's content. But biblical content, I believe it's content.

Speaker 1 37:46

Bitesize biblical content. Oh, yes, yes, okay.

Speaker 2 37:48

Poor Chuck.

Speaker 3 37:52

Bitesize biblical discussion.

Speaker 2 37:54

Kyle, you're messing around with the brand here. I don't care. I don't care. I'm just playing it's conversation, right it's?

Speaker 1 38:00

good, it's cool, it's cool, cool, cool, cool, cool Discussion. Right, okay, I knew that, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw some dude on a podcast recently that talked about our relationship with God and how it should shift from like when you get in trouble, like oh, I hope dad doesn't find out too, I'm in trouble, get dad here, who I'm in trouble, get dad here, I need his help. Oh, I like that. I think that kind of applies to the eldership too. Is like when we start looking at them less like I'm going to get in trouble and more like they're here to help me.

Speaker 3 38:29

And I think that has something to do with them too and their attitude towards us. If you have good elders who really care about you, then I think that that is the case. They're not there to get you.

Speaker 1 38:39

They're there to help you when I'm overwhelmed. I'm going to want their help. I'm going to want their guidance.

Speaker 3 38:43

I'm super thankful that we have, I think, great elders here, and I've been in positions before where I needed help, and that's what I think of. I'll ask them what I should do, and it's helpful.

Speaker 1 38:56

Well, and you can always just treat them like a cop too. That's one other approach, is like you work. For me, you know too that that's one other approach, is like you work for me that's right.

Speaker 3 39:05

You can always remind them of that. See how that goes. Show them your, your christian license.