72 - Why Did God Create Disappointments?

A casual game night conversation led us down an unexpected theological rabbit hole, wrestling with one of faith's most profound questions: Why would a loving God create us, knowing we would sin? This question touches the very core of how we understand God's character and our purpose in His divine plan. Whether you're wrestling with tough questions or seeking deeper understanding, this episode offers a perspective that honors both our honest doubts and God's loving character. Some things we covered:

• God values relationships, as shown in Genesis when He created humans in His image
• Being made in God's image includes having free will, which makes our choices meaningful
• The parent-child relationship provides insight—parents have children knowing they will disappoint
• Free will creates the possibility of heartbreak but gives value to our choice to follow God
• Like Job, our lives may demonstrate God's character to "rulers and authorities in heavenly places"
• God's desire to "bring many sons to glory" shows His ultimate purpose is relationship

Join us weekly for more bite-sized biblical discussions that challenge your thinking and deepen your faith. Share with friends who might be asking similar questions.

Contact the Exhorter Podcast

• Email us at media@clovischurchofchrist.org
• Find us on Facebook or Instagram

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:06

Welcome to the Exhorter podcast, where we're going to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. Kyle, it's not your turn.

Speaker 1 0:18

John's looking at me while he says Kyle, thank you, john. I know it's been a few weeks since we've seen each other. We've all just blended into each other. Well, we all have beards. Yeah, that's it, we're white. I mean that been a few weeks since we've seen each other. We've all just blended into each other now. Well, we all have beards. Yeah, that's it, and we're white. I mean, that's good enough as any.

Speaker 2 0:28

Are you going to have to edit that?

Speaker 1 0:29

out. No, but I'll probably keep it All right. Nate, you're bringing our topic today. What are we going to talk about, and we all have red in our beards.

Speaker 2 0:38

Do you have red Slightly? Yeah, A little bit of red Ah man.

Speaker 1 0:44

Maybe we need to change the name of the podcast To Red Beards, something, yeah.

Speaker 2 0:50

Okay, so a few weeks ago or maybe it was a month ago, I don't remember we had a game night at our house and we played a game. I won't say what game it was. It was a little bit spicy and some interesting conversation came up and it was mostly lighthearted. And then someone brought up the question.

Speaker 1 1:13

Can I give a disclaimer, though? The game wasn't one of those after dark or adult version games or something.

Speaker 3 1:20

Were you playing? Spin the bottle.

Speaker 1 1:22

Yeah, okay you're right.

Speaker 3 1:23

It wasn't one of those.

Speaker 1 1:24

You're right it was more of a political game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a little spicy that way.

Speaker 2 1:28

So, anyways, thank you for saying that, john, we're not terrible people all the time. So we were playing that game and the topic came up, and I don't remember exactly like how we got on this topic, but it was. Eventually it came to the question why did God make us, knowing that we would sin, so um game night, um, you know, just normal game night conversation.

Speaker 1 2:00

The funny thing was um well, kyle wasn't invited, but to uh, I wasn't invited but two. I'm pretty sure he was. Were you invited. Yeah, he just didn't care to go, yeah.

Speaker 2 2:12

He doesn't like me.

Speaker 3 2:14

As far as I'm concerned, I'm invited to everything. It's just whether I show up or not.

Speaker 1 2:17

Yeah, well, I'll say it was in Madera. What movie is that?

Speaker 2 2:20

from? Is that from a movie?

Speaker 3 2:22

No, it's not.

Speaker 1 2:28

That was a good line. That's a kind of original. Everything I say is from a movie. That's a kind of but all your good lines are from movies. But. But the funny thing about that is we got, we were probably playing for like 10, 15 minutes and then we spent about 40 minutes talking about this and it just kind of like, well, we're not going back to the game because yeah, yeah, we had this like right there and it was actually really great.

Speaker 1 2:43

I had a good conversation. I thought it was good too. I don't know if it resolved anything for for anyone, Cause it was kind of one of those on the spot conversations you didn't really prepared for, but I do remember us saying we should talk about that more because if other people have those kinds of questions, I mean it's, it's just one of those things you probably think about you know on the Exhorter podcast, we like to talk about things that people might think about.

Speaker 1 3:08

Might think about, and maybe there's not always a concrete, really good answer for yeah.

Speaker 2 3:13

So I think it's a good question, like why did he make us? Knowing that we would sin and disappoint him? You know like we would Well. I mean ultimately knowing that some people would go to hell. Yeah, you know like we would well, and I mean ultimately knowing that some people would go to hell, yeah, uh, I mean, if we're gonna, you know, let's not pull punches and, um, it kind of brings up the question well, does god need us? And if he doesn't need us, then why? Why create us? So, anyways, it just brings up some other questions and I don't expect that we'll necessarily, you know, come to all the answers today, but I hope that we can at least, um, talk about these. Well, I was hoping kyle would actually have all the answers, okay, that's.

Speaker 1 3:43

I hope that we can at least talk about these a little bit. Well, I was hoping Kyle would actually have all the answers.

Speaker 2 3:45

Oh good, that's why we didn't tell him exactly what we were going to do.

Speaker 3 3:47

I'll just let you guys stick your foot in your mouth for about 20 minutes, then I'll come in and fix everything at the end.

Speaker 1 3:53

This is the way this is what we do. Thank you for rescuing us, or at least being willing to rescue us.

Speaker 2 4:00

Okay, so I have some ideas here I want to share. I think that God made us even though he knew that we would sin, because God values relationships very, very highly. I think we see this right from the very beginning that God values relationships. So in Genesis 1, and if you'd all turn with me there now, Genesis chapter one, verse 26 and 27, God says then God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and then I'll skip down to verse 27. So God created man in his own image and the image of God. He created a male and female. He created them.

Speaker 2 4:44

One of the things that really stands out to me first about this is let us make man in our image, Like. There's a plurality to God, and of course we know God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, but I think that in itself shows that God is not a solo God. He's a God of relationship. Yes, they are one Father, Son and Holy Spirit but they are also different, and so I think that that shows that God is a God of relationship. And then he says let us make man in our image, and so we are made like God.

Speaker 2 5:19

If God is relational. We're made like him, and I think that gets further solidified in Genesis 2 when he makes Adam. He says at verse 18, it's not good that man should be alone. I'll make a helper fit for him. I guess God could have made us so that we were, I don't know, fulfilled or capable on our own, but he didn't. He made it so that man and woman complimented each other, that there was a relationship there, and so I think that God really values relationships and good, loving relationships, and so that's why he made us so that he would have a relationship with us and we would have a relationship with him.

Speaker 1 6:20

He created us for the vanity of it or to show how amazing he is to the principalities you know, and that there's some sort of vanity or ego trip behind that and they do miss the character of God. And so we're going to our whole theme this year at our local church here is getting to know the attributes and the character of God, and so I feel like this is a good year to kind of think about this question and stuff too, because he's our father and as fathers here at the table one of the things that we brought up in that conversation that night actually your wife brought it up.

Speaker 1 7:00

It was really great is the perspective as a parent.

Speaker 2 7:05

Why do we have kids?

Speaker 1 7:05

Yeah, if you knew that your kids were going to fall away or disappoint you, would it. Would it make you not want to have them anyways? No, because of the relationship you have as as as a father, and sometimes, like I said, those arguments discount him as a loving father, and when you put it in that perspective, I feel like it makes a lot more sense and obviously that's the relationship as you were saying. That's the relationship that he wants to have with us.

Speaker 2 7:33

Yeah, yeah, that's a really practical example because, like I don't know, I never. I don't think I ever thought of this before I had kids. But my kids are going to die someday, they're going to pass away right, and knowing that that's going to happen, should I have had kids. But I wanted to, I really wanted to.

Speaker 1 7:51

I don't know Well, you wanted that nuclear family and you wanted that love.

Speaker 2 7:55

And everyone wants that reciprocated love and I think that I think that that shows that we are made in God's image, that we want relationships, we want to have kids and we we want to get. I think a lot of people really do want to get married and have that relationship also, which totally jives with what scripture says that we were made for each other. And there's actually like research that shows this. The, the Pew Research Center, did a survey in 2023 that showed that 69% of 18 to 34-year-olds wanted marriage. The NSFG what is that? National something? Family group Survey of Family Growth. The National Survey of Family Growth, which is done by the CDC.

Speaker 2 8:41

Everybody loves them, so this must be true. This is before COVID. This is pre-COVID, thank you very much. Authored by the CDC. Everybody loves them, so this must be true. This is before COVID. This is pre-COVID, thank you very much. Authored by Fauci. 80% of women 15 to 44, hoped to have kids, and it was slightly lower than that for men, but it was. Men still wanted to have kids too. So it's just this innate desire. I think it's built into all of us that we want those relationships. We want a spouse, we want a spouse, we want kids, and that just reflects who God is.

Speaker 1 9:07

And something before. I'm sure Kyle's going to say something, but I have a good Marvel quote right there, which is Vision's quote. Something isn't beautiful because it lasts Right.

Speaker 2 9:20

It's beautiful because it doesn't.

Speaker 1 9:25

No, it's just the idea. He's just the idea. He's talking to another, talking to Ultron, ultron, ai, and just saying that humanity isn't beautiful because it's it lives forever. It's you know, they have, they will be doomed at some point. But just that idea is is just you know, because something is scarce, such as time, such as people and family and everything that actually is.

Speaker 1 9:49

That's literally what gives them value. That gives them value, yeah, and they're beautiful because it can be here and it can be gone. So cherish it all. Yeah, yeah, and I like to think that God cherishes every single one of us, especially when we follow him, yeah, especially when we don't let him down. But then again you start this ball rolling down the hill. You're creating man Not all men are evil and fall away, so against. The whole premise of the question is knowing that man would fall. Not all men fall. We have many people that were-.

Speaker 1 10:27

All do, well, not many. I'm saying don't go to heaven, don't achieve this goal right. We all fall short.

Speaker 2 10:37

But not everybody goes to hell. Some of us go to heaven, exactly, and so it's, it's.

Speaker 1 10:42

I think that that's something to note that in in the beginning of that question that assumes everything, it's all a failure.

Speaker 2 10:50

But that brings up a great point Is the benefit of, because we know in Matthew 7, is it Matthew 7? Where he's, the way is broad that leads to destruction and many will go down that path, and the way is narrow that leads to life and few will find it. So is the eternal life of the few greater than the eternal destruction of the many.

Speaker 1 11:08

like is god an economist, and and and he's just like well, I want the few, so I don't care I think once you push that domino for free will, you're just gonna get what you get and you can't then segment. Well, you can't just segment the ones you want and and it all falls. It all falls the way it falls, and it's not that he doesn't know that that falls that way. But there's some beauty along the way Us living our lives, us teaching our kids, us praising God on Sundays.

Speaker 3 11:41

It's still beautiful every single day and I think that the few are worth it in the eyes of God. There's so many stories. Noah and his family were worth the effort to preserve, even though the rest of mankind had grieved. God Good point a lot. We look through Israel's history. There are times when the whole nation was pretty much just completely gone, except God always had his remnant. He had to remind Elijah I've got a couple thousand left, you know and there's always a remnant. You might not always see it, that was worth it to God and it was a remnant of Israel that was grafted into the kingdom of his son. And so there's always this element of a remnant. And even in the book of Job, when you read through it, it's an entire book where Satan and God have a debate over basically one person and that's Job. Yeah, and I think we discount when we talk about the numbers game, and I've heard people criticize well, what kind of God is it that has such a low batting average that?

Speaker 3 12:46

there's so many that are lost and so few that are saved. What kind of God is that? Well, I think you're underappreciating the significance of free will and how big a a big victory for someone in our position to, in faith, look to God and live by faith and try to live beyond this world and live beyond what we are physically yeah, to the nigh self at that point. Well, and failure is a part of victory. I mean, when you're lifting weights, when you're doing really heavy bulking, you, you lift to failure. Yeah, every day you're lifting to the point where you fail, and that's how you progress and get better.

Speaker 2 13:32

So you're saying god created sin wow, you just jumped. Isn't that kind of? Isn't that kind of where that?

Speaker 3 13:41

ends up, in a sense I mean God defined sin. Yeah.

Speaker 2 13:46

And by giving us free will, he gave us the choice. That means we're not going to always hit the mark right.

Speaker 1 13:52

God created and defined the parameters and boundaries to which we would have a beautiful life in his service. Service, yeah, I think most of the things you look at sin too. They even outside of its biblical judgment. Many things in the category of sin are against one's faith, even even like Darwinian nature.

Speaker 2 14:17

Oh sure, like like they go against they.

Speaker 1 14:19

they make it a lot harder to survive and live. Yeah, and so I think that just just because um he created the parameters, that doesn't mean that he um he has the guilt for it. You know that's the thing I mean it's providing us an opportunity to to have that.

Speaker 3 14:37

We'll come back to the illustration of your own children. Yeah, um, the knowledge that they will disappoint at times or make poor choices at times doesn't ruin the experience of being a parent. Because, like right now, my daughter listens to Taylor Swift and I feel like I failed her, or something like that.

Speaker 1 15:01

You kind of did Sorry.

Speaker 3 15:03

She's only nine. She's impressionable, and I'm not the only one. She's learning this not from me, but from her friends and other dads who don't have the fortitude to say no to Taylor Swift. But there's still time for her to get a better taste in music, and so I know, just because this is where she's at now, you mean like hank williams? Like hank williams, okay, just she does like the chili peppers, so she's got a little little nine-year-old that listens to hank williams, that would be that's no, a nine-year-old that listens to chili oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 3 15:34

no, so I use that jokingly, but the idea is that that where she she is now, uh, you know, if there's there's lessons that my children at at five and nine years old, I've taught them and repeated ad nauseum and they still make mistakes, and it's frustrating at times as a parent, but I also know that this is part of the process.

Speaker 2 15:55

And you don't give up on your kids just because they make mistakes and you know from the outset they're gonna make mistakes.

Speaker 1 16:03

It's one of those things at the end of the day we just kind of have to go. It's a faith thing which is just because he knows everything that's going to happen. Like if we knew everything was going to happen we might then call into question whether we should let it happen or not, like that. That's kind of the whole bit about time travel and shows and movies and everything is is because you have the ability to know the future, or time travel is lazy story writing or affect the future.

Speaker 1 16:30

That means you. There's a choice to stop it or alter it. We don't know that he, how he, works that way. Does he? Does he turn it off? You know? Does he allow himself to know, even though he can?

Speaker 2 16:43

oh, is he that ultimately surprised by us?

Speaker 1 16:45

does he give us the opportunity that, uh, something can happen to someone and it butterfly effects, and now something's different that person. I mean, I think he knows, but I, I just don't. I don't know that. I don't think we're created in that part of his image. I think we we look at it a lot differently as mortals, and that's one of the parts about being omniscient that I don't think we can understand.

Speaker 2 17:09

I think oftentimes we look at things very short-sightedly, like we look at things in terms of life here on this earth. And I don't think that's God's perspective, like like he is looking at the big picture, and I think the story of Job like exemplifies that realistically. Because if, if, if life were just about our life here, then life would be just about Job's life during his lifetime, and if that were the case, then God just completely ruined his life.

Speaker 1 17:36

Yeah, and we talked about this.

Speaker 2 17:38

I feel like Job is going to be so pervasive this year because of the class, you guys have already stolen all of my points.

Speaker 1 17:44

Thank you, I don't even know where to go now. But to the point where I was talking to Taylor about this a while back and it was about Job's kids and I just said something like well, we don't know that they didn't go to heaven and go to heaven, and that kind of changed the perspective there of like it went from letting them die to taking them home. Yeah, and we don't know that. And at the end of the day, we place a lot of value on these mortal lives that we have here and as we should, they're valuable.

Speaker 1 18:14

They are valuable, but hindsight we don't see the true reward, and so we think this is the best it can be, and it's not always the case. Kyle, do you want to steal any other points from his outline?

Speaker 3 18:28

Well, the fact that we have free will is part of being made in the image of God. That implies that he has free will. He chose to, knowing we would would sin. He chose to still go through with it and send a son you know, basically himself, to live among us and be rejected and treated shamefully and put to death in such a awful fashion, and so that's an expression of god's free will and his desire that that everybody really should be saved, like I think it's romans 5 yeah so the idea is that that if we were made without free will, if we were made to not fail, uh, then we're not like him well, and then we're also just because he has free will then it's just like we're.

Speaker 2 19:16

We're a computer, we just do exactly what we're told. And is that really a?

Speaker 3 19:20

can you really have a relationship that's meaningful and that's kind of my thoughts is it's hard to find a scripture to back up that exact point, but I've heard people say that before, that it's assuming what God's motivations are, that he wants relationship or, and I think that's a fair assumption. But that's kind of my way of trying to reconcile it scripturally as best as I can that, if I think it's, it's kind of a flawed premise to ask the question well, what if God made us without free will? Yeah, then then we wouldn't be in his image, because he has free will, god is sovereign, he does what he wills, and so the fact that you know we couldn't be made without free will and still be said that we're made in his image that's part of being made in his image is to have free will, yeah, and with that free will, his desire and his work is to get us to a place where we mimic his free will, to put the needs of others ahead of our own, to show sacrifice and love for others.

Speaker 2 20:22

And that's what makes all of our choices meaningful is that we have the opportunity to make a choice. If we don't have the opportunity to make a choice, what meaning does it have? That's our programming. We have to do that. So I think that the idea of free will is absolutely necessary in order to have a valuable, meaningful relationship.

Speaker 1 20:38

the idea of free will is absolutely necessary in order to have a valuable, meaningful relationship. I think it might be difficult for some people to that don't have kids to understand that love and that that decision. But I think another analogy could be that it's it's like an artist creating a masterpiece, you know, some sort of painting or sculpture or something, knowing that not everyone's going to like it and it's not going to be appreciated in that same way. I don't think that would stop them from making it. That's a very poor example.

Speaker 2 21:12

I think that another reason that God made us knowing that we would sin Well, I don't know about this one, but I want to bring it up. Life isn't all about us. Just to ask the question why did God make me knowing that I would sin? Is, I think, kind of a little bit of a selfish question, like it puts me at the center of the universe. Oh, poor me, I could make a mistake and I will make a mistake, and then there's going to be punishment for that and that's a problem for me. But maybe life isn't all about me.

Speaker 2 21:55

And where I go with this is we already touched on it a bit with um, with job um, but there's a passage in ephesians 3, verses 9 and 10. Uh, paul says there and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in god, who created all things so that, through the church, the manifold wisdom of god might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose that he realized in Christ Jesus, our Lord. So when I think about that, I think God's wisdom was made known through the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. Well, who is the church? The church is people, people. And what is God using those people to do? To show God's wisdom to whoever it is that's in the heavenly realms.

Speaker 2 22:47

That's not God. And, like the story of Job, that's exactly his story, right? God comes to him, or comes to Satan and says have you considered my servant Job? And Job Kyle you can chime in on this, since you've been talking a lot about the Job class or teaching the Job class and Satan says does Job serve God? For nothing, he serves you because you've put a hedge of protection around him and you've blessed him. And then God says well, okay, so you can do. Basically do whatever you want to him, just don't harm him. And he does basically do whatever you want to him, just don't harm him.

Speaker 3 23:19

And, uh, and he does, and um yeah, most people assume they they they recall the story incorrectly that Satan brings up Job says hey, I want to, I want to go attack this guy, job. It's God that brings up the topic to Satan. Hey, have you considered? God initiates the dialogue. What are you doing? Satan, no, roaming to and fro on the earth. Hey, did you ever come across Job? He's upright and blameless. He's a pretty good guy. What do you think of Job? And Satan's like? Well, he just worships you because you give him good stuff. Yeah, let me, you know, let me take that all away from him and he'll he'll reject you, he'll curse you to your face and turn away from you. So it's God that initiates that dialogue. And I like the Ephesian scripture that you just read, because that is exactly what the book of Job is. Does Job ever? And as I'm teaching this book right now here at the Clovis Church of Christ, I'm presenting it as if there's like two stories there's the upper and lower story.

Speaker 2 24:19

Yeah, job doesn't even know what's. He doesn't realize what's going on between God and Satan.

Speaker 3 24:23

He's just like my life is terrible right now, Job and his three friends have no clue about the upper story. They're stuck in the lower story and the lower story the upper story is looking down and they know what's going on down below because Satan is afflicting Job. But on the lower part they don't know what's going on up above, and when God confronts Job at the end of the book, he doesn't explain to him either.

Speaker 2 24:52

Oh man, I was reading that this morning during your sermon, where he he in what is it? Job 38 and Job 41, where he says were you? Were you there when I did all of this?

Speaker 3 24:58

Yeah, it's like his answer to Job is not. Let me explain to you. It's more like who are you to ask these kinds of questions? Yeah, yeah, who do you think you are?

Speaker 1 25:08

Yeah, it really is. I wonder what he's thinking about this podcast right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 25:13

For you. It really, I don't know. It hit home with me when I read it I was like, wow, that's God's answer to Job. Wow, but Job, even in his suffering, he always seems to come back to. Yes, I think God is afflicting me and my life is terrible, but I still have faith in my Redeemer well, he never turns away from God.

Speaker 3 25:45

And he says that that, even though I don't expect to go before God and have him hear my case and I don't think it's going to go very good because he's the almighty and I'm just this tiny little, you know insignificant speck of creation, but I will still put my hope in him. I have nothing else to hope in. Yeah.

Speaker 2 26:07

Yeah, put my hope in him. I have nothing else to hope in. Yeah, yeah. And, and this, this whole time, god is using Job to make a point, and so I think that maybe our lives, um aren't just about, uh, us, but we are making a point. Do you think that God has um a point that he's proving to angels, demons, satan?

Speaker 3 26:31

Well, the exact point that he's making through Job, that there is intrinsically value in God and that we don't worship him merely because of the things he gives us, but we worship him because of who he is, and that's enough.

Speaker 2 26:47

Why do you think he feels the necessity to make that point? To make that point Because it is true. Well, there's a lot of things that's true that he doesn't necessarily make the point about. So it's like.

Speaker 1 27:03

It's like someone would say why, that I'm not going to dignify that with a response Like just because someone asks the question doesn't mean it's a good question and you need to answer it, kind of thing. So God is so much more powerful than any of these people he's making a point to, so why would he feel the need to make a point?

Speaker 2 27:23

Well, and what's the outcome? Right, I'm imagining God is making that point to Satan and to demons. I mean, there's also Angels that we know of. What else is?

Speaker 1 27:37

But there's so much more that we don't know about heaven, afterlife, everything. A lot of times what we think is we think on a very linear plane that our life and our existence and our timeline is really all about us, and then, once it all happens and judgment happens and we're in heaven that's it for eternity. We really have no concept of anything before or after. It's hard because a lot of these questions come up in the beginning of someone's walk. Yeah, but a lot of these questions are really difficult to deal with.

Speaker 2 28:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:15

At the beginning of your walk, because you like, if you've gotten down that you 100% believe there is a God yeah, yeah, from apologetics, through the natural world, through his word, through whatever, whatever evidence that worked for you, and then you start understanding and knowing a lot about God, become a little easier than starting off with a question like this, because some of these questions you're going to have to go based upon a faith and understanding that we do not. We're not given an answer, nor do we really deserve one answer on why he created everything in the world first place.

Speaker 1 29:01

It comes down to a matter of trust, right, but it's really hard to do that when you're thinking that the world is revolving around you and what God can give you in your life, and why you should serve him. It's very centered around oneself.

Speaker 3 29:19

What I said earlier is why would God have us exalt him? I said because it's true. It is the central true thing that God is the source, he's the creator, and so it's right for us to acknowledge that. But I think I found this quote from John Piper and certainly I wouldn't agree with everything he teaches, but I think he gets the heart of the gospel spot on and I love this thought. And he talks about a passage like Isaiah 43 in verse seven. Let me read this quote from John Piper and I think it articulates the point I'm trying to make. Isaiah 43 in verse 7 says Everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made. So here's the quote.

Speaker 3 30:00

So the question is always if God is that radically God-exalting, how is he not an egomaniac? Or how is he not a megalomaniac? How is it that he is not using us instead of loving us? That is the key question and that is where the slogan comes from God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Because the answer to the question of whether God is an egomaniac or not is whether his self-exaltation is at the same time a satisfaction of our souls, and that is in fact what the Bible says. The reason God is not an egomaniac in exalting himself is because he is exalting the very thing that satisfies my soul, namely his beauty, his glory, his character.

Speaker 2 30:38

I'll cut off the quote there, but I just that idea, that that's a slogan of his.

Speaker 3 30:43

I read some of his blogs and some of his stuff on desiringgodcom and that's a slogan of his. God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him, and I think there's something really like I said, I might not agree with everything he teaches, but I think that kernel of truth right there is just right on the money.

Speaker 3 31:01

So let me tie some of these threads together this idea of God's glory and then what you began this episode with on the idea of relationship or family. In Hebrews 2, let's see. It says in verse 9, but we see Jesus who is made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. So in Jesus we see God's glory. The grace of God might taste death for everyone. So in Jesus we see God's glory, for it was fitting for him. For whom are all things and by whom are all things in bringing many sons to glory? It's God's will to bring many sons to glory.

Speaker 3 31:39

Now there are many who reject that, but that is their free will choice. But it is God's will to bring many sons to glory and to accomplish that he sent his son uh to make the captain of their salvation, perfect through sufferings what he experienced, for both he who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason he's not ashamed to call them brethren. So the work of Jesus brings us into God's glory and helps us share in that glory, but it also he's not ashamed to call us brethren. It establishes that family connection that he desired all along.

Speaker 2 32:15

Yeah, yeah, as you were talking, kyle, I just thought about how much God desires that we should be saved, and I mean it's obvious in the story of the gospel and is just that God values relationships so highly and that those relationships require free will.

Speaker 3 32:56

And free will brings in the possibility of heartbreak.

Speaker 2 33:00

Yes, yes it does, but it's also what gives value to our choice to follow him. And I also think that for people who struggle with this question why did God create us knowing that we would sin? I think that it's okay for us to have that question. We can still have faith in God and believe and trust him, and have that question and wonder why and ask it.

Speaker 3 33:28

And there might be elements of this question that are too great for us to really grasp fully, but just understand what we read in Hebrews, chapter two his desires to bring us into his glory. And there are many people that reject that image of God in which they were made and that breaks God's heart. But for every one of us that chooses to refine that image and look to his son and remember the price that he paid to bring us into that glory, to be sharers of that glory, to establish that family relationship, it brings joy and it makes I think there's something worthwhile on the eyes of God for those that do choose to refine that image of his in their life. Amen, well Nate, thank you for that very weighty topic to consider. That is a really big question that so many people ponder, and it's only normal to ponder those kinds of questions about why we exist and what God's purpose is.

Speaker 3 34:30

I recall in Psalm 131 that David said my heart is not haughty, nor my eyes lofty. Neither do I concern myself with great matters nor things too profound for me. It is right to ask those questions and think on them and at times we just have to admit that we have some limitations in understanding every aspect of God's nature or every aspect of his will, but let's be grateful for what he has revealed in the Bible, and the Bible reveals his love for all of mankind and his desire for all of mankind to be saved and spend eternity with them. Let's focus on that and be grateful for it. Thank you all for listening today. I hope we've given you something to think about and if this podcast has been a help to you, we ask you that you would follow along for new episodes every week and maybe even share and pass along our podcast to some friends of yours. We'd love more listeners. Thank you, see you next week.

Speaker 2 35:30

Farther along. We'll know all about it. That song is so appropriate, yeah.

Speaker 3 35:33

All right. Well, what do we got? I've got marital boundaries.

Speaker 2 35:39

I've got and I have a very light, easy topic why did God make us, knowing that we would sin Kyle's, like? You're right, that is easy. And I have disagreeing with elders Ooh, so Like is that you have a specific disagreement we need to discuss.

Speaker 1 36:00

How to disagree with elders. Just keep it in. I got to. Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Yeah, well, man, now I'm done, elder, yeah.

Speaker 2 36:11

So do we want to flip a coin? Okay, I'll go first the story of the gospel. He gave the thing that was most valuable to him To save us.

Speaker 3 36:30

You were scowling at me. I was like, what did I say?

Speaker 1 36:33

I was messing with my mustache and I was trying not to breathe into my mic.

Speaker 3 36:37

I'm like you're just going Because it looked like you leaned in and you're just like.

Speaker 2 36:40

You totally threw me off because I saw Kyle's face and I'm like you're just good. Well, yeah, because it looked like you leaned in and you're just like listen. You totally threw me off because I saw Kyle's face and I was like you guys are making faces at each other and you're not listening to what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 36:46

We're over there off mic. I totally thought that I was off face. I was like man, oh man, was I not listening to Kyle? I apologize, no, no audience, audience, we leap forward day, so we're not at our best Leap forward day. Stupid daylight savings.

Speaker 2 37:04

Mr President, if you're listening to this, please get rid of at least the spring forward part. I don't care about the fallback.

Speaker 3 37:09

Mr Elon, it is not efficient to have daylight savings time. Get rid of it, you're fired.

Speaker 2 37:20

That's Trump, so anyway. So sorry, no, no, but I guess the point.

Speaker 1 37:25

Every single time I sit there in conflict for like 10 minutes going. Should I include that or not? I really like that.

Speaker 2 37:31

That's such a great. It's so much better that you edit the podcast than that I do it, because you would just leave it it in there.

Speaker 3 37:38

I almost said something, but decided to just not care about it. But you left my Trump impression in the last one.

Speaker 1 37:43

Lying Kamala. I thought that was perfect and that was very tasteful.

Speaker 2 37:47

You did a Trump impression in the sermon this morning Did I At the very beginning, because that's the only part I listened to Was it? This no, you stood off to your left-hand side of the podium and you said something and I was like, oh, someone must have dared him to do a Trump impression, because it was like no, but I did like the idea that you.

Speaker 1 38:09

It was very humble this lesson you mentioned Guardians of the Galaxy in that lesson.

Speaker 3 38:17

You know what? I've done so many things that now it's like the Boy who Cried Wolf. Everyone's hearing phantom movie quotes that I'm not attending.

Speaker 1 38:23

No, it's when you said that you also have seen a movie you have seen a movie that wasn't that great, but you liked it anyways. I just assumed you were talking about Gardens of the Galaxy.

Speaker 3 38:33

And I knew you would assume that.

Speaker 2 38:35

And I knew you would assume that you said something else humble this morning too. You said something else humble this morning too, wrong. You said something like I've made mistakes, but I haven't made mistakes like that, oh yeah, and I was like okay, there, mr Humility, we have all these visitors here who either thinks that our preacher has self-esteem issues, or just don't know that he rips on himself being fat all the time Self-deprecation. I've ripped a lot of clothes in the past.

Speaker 3 39:11

This was not on purpose. I thought that was pretty funny.

Speaker 1 39:14

Did you get a laugh? I'm not sure. Go to the tape.