57 - Tattoos: Think Before You Ink

Are you one of the 20-25% of Americans that have a tattoo? Are you thinking about getting a tattoo? There are many differentviews about tattoos within the church - some earnestly opposed andothers see no issue. Join us as we have our own lengthy debate on this topic and let’s see what the bible says, and doesn’t say, about getting that ink.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:06

Welcome to the Exordr podcast, where we aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. We've got an interesting topic today, kyle. What are we talking about today?

Speaker 2 0:19

We're going to talk about tattoos. Does the Bible approve or disapprove of them? How many tattoos do you guys have and why are they so cool? Are you showing in comparison?

Speaker 1 0:31

Are you giving away where you stand already?

Speaker 2 0:33

Yeah, am I showing a little bit of bias there right off the introduction? No, I'm not Just trying to find a fun way to begin this episode.

Speaker 1 0:42

I was trying to think of that too, but I couldn't think of it. It's going to be inky. We're going to ink this one.

Speaker 3 0:47

It's a piercing. I got a good line for that.

Speaker 2 0:52

So the Bible doesn't have a lot to say about tattoos specifically, but, like many of the topics we cover, that doesn't mean the Bible is silent on the issue or that the Bible doesn't give us any guidance. But before you start to think, that's approval, that's Kyle Goodwin's thumbs up of approval for you to go get a tattoo. You better think before you ink. Oh clever.

Speaker 1 1:14

Like you speak for a living or something. That's the title of this episode. What about face tattoos?

Speaker 2 1:20

Oh well, I'll wait, we'll get there. This is a very relevant topic because most studies that I've found indicate that anywhere from 20 to 25% of people in America have a tattoo, and it's near 50% among millennials. So you're going to encounter people, whether it's people in the church or people that you are trying to share the gospel with. You're going to find people that are inked up. So it's a very relevant topic and it presents some important questions. If I have tattoos and become a Christian, do I need to have them covered up or removed with a laser? If I am a Christian, is it okay? If I get a tattoo? Is there anything wrong with that? What are the limits on this? So those are important questions that are on a lot of people's minds about this topic.

Speaker 1 2:06

If I share how I feel I might offend people.

Speaker 3 2:09

No, it's okay, because I think that we can.

Speaker 1 2:12

That's okay, because that's you, not me.

Speaker 3 2:13

No, no. But here's the thing. A lot of times, what we talk about here and what I hope for is that we don't always agree and have the exact perspective, so we can emulate the perspectives out there and what it would sound like to have a conversation about it. If we all just agreed all the time, then what would be the point?

Speaker 2 2:30

Nate, I know exactly how you feel about that, because I was teaching the high school class here at our church about a year ago and the topic of tattoos came up and we didn't dwell on it for very long, but after class several of the high schoolers said Mr Kyle, do you have any tattoos? And I said I'm not going to answer. I'm afraid If I say yes, then I don't want you to think that's me giving you approval, but I don't necessarily want to say no, yeah, because you don't want to lie.

Speaker 3 3:04

Let me ask, because you're leaving the door open for the choice of possibly getting one. We have to talk about our agreement there. This will be the test.

Speaker 2 3:13

if any of our high schoolers aren't listening, I'll go on record right now and say actually my skin is unsullied by the tattoo needle, so I am completely ink-free.

Speaker 1 3:24

So we'll see if any high schoolers come up to me after this episode air see if they're actually listening.

Speaker 2 3:29

But if we want to get into what the Bible says, I think the only passage that really directly talks about this would be Leviticus, chapter 19 and verse 28. And after doing some digging on this, I'm not sure it says exactly what people think it says. But Leviticus 19, verse 28, says you shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you. I am the Lord. And that expression, I am the Lord, comes up all throughout Leviticus. That's the reason God says I'm telling you to do this, because I'm me and you are made in my image and you're supposed to do what I tell you.

Speaker 3 4:06

That's also because they didn't want them to look like the other idolatrous nations around them, right? Wasn't that kind of the basis for that?

Speaker 2 4:14

That's what's believed about this passage. It doesn't give us any explanation, but based upon other texts, other writings outside of the Bible, it seems like that would be a very common practice if they would get markings. And that's where it gets a little sticky if you start looking into what it actually says the word tattoo there. Now, of course, translation is never as simple as one plus one equals two. You have to. There's always a little bit of guessing work in translation, but when you start looking at it literally, it talks about marking your skin is just what it literally means. Now, historically, there is evidence that at that time that Moses and the Israelites left Egypt, around the time of the Viticus, was written that the Egyptians. There was some tattooing that is similar to what we know, but in Canaan what was far more common was cutting.

Speaker 3 5:09

So scarring their skin. Scarring their skin, yeah.

Speaker 2 5:12

Things like branding.

Speaker 1 5:15

So I want to jump in and comment right here, because they just looked up the word tattoo in I guess it's the Hebrew and wait for it. Are you ready? Yeah, you know what it is? Okay, nathan, I'm serious. It's Nathan To give, to put or to set, and the word, the name Nathaniel, means gift of God, to give.

Speaker 3 5:37

Yeah, jonathan means God's gift.

Speaker 1 5:39

See, it's a little bit different, yeah.

Speaker 3 5:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, john.

Speaker 1 5:45

But that is the word that is translated to tattoo here. Yeah, to put or to set, to give, I guess it would be on Well, and then it's followed by on you.

Speaker 3 5:55

Yeah, and I just kind of like what Kyle was talking about. I know that the thoughts behind this is if you served a pagan god or a certain god, you would have cutts and marks on your body to signify who you worshiped. I mean, that's far removed from us, but you know we can look at some secular history to figure that out.

Speaker 2 6:15

Yeah, that's what most people believe is being addressed in Leviticus 19 is some sort of mark or indication that signifies your ancestors or the god or deity that you serve. And a good example of this that we're very familiar with is in 1 Kings chapter 18, where Elijah has his showdown with all the prophets of Baal at Mount Carmel, and it says in verse 28 that they cried aloud and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them.

Speaker 1 6:45

Oh, yeah, yeah, they're cutting themselves for their other god. So, kyle, in looking at this passage, though, like I'm going through and I'm reading it, and besides, maybe you shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it, you shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

Speaker 2 7:05

So I have a beard, john has a beard, you do not. You are in sin, nate Well he did I just he's, he's fallen away. I'm more impressed with the harming the edges of your beard. You got to stop it, brother.

Speaker 1 7:18

I'm more impressed with the mustache that I grew, but I was my wife baby shave it. But it says like don't profane your daughter by making her a prostitute. Is that a? Is that a good thing we probably shouldn't do now? Yeah, that's a good thing, yeah, we shouldn't do now.

Speaker 1 7:34

You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary. Ok, so we don't necessarily keep Sabbaths or reverence the sanctuary, but we still like those are physical things, but we still, you know, have a day devoted to the Lord and we still like, revere our worship to him. Don't turn to mediums or necromancers, like we don't. We shouldn't do that. No, we do boards.

Speaker 2 7:56

Do you know about that already?

Speaker 1 7:58

Don't seek them out and so make yourselves like you shall stand before the gray head and honor the face of an old. Do we still do that? Yeah, and you shall fear your God. Yeah, we should do those things. So like I don't know, are we going through and picking and choosing what we do and do not want to obey here or follow?

Speaker 3 8:16

or what of it, or what context and purpose matters.

Speaker 1 8:20

Yeah, I mean, how are? We going to say to us today yeah, how are we going to decide like oh well, you know I definitely won't do that, but I'll do that, that's OK.

Speaker 2 8:28

Well, there's shadows in the Old Testament and then there's the reality in the New Testament. So what? What would be the cutting that that God would want his people to do in the Old Testament, if cutting was the custom and it was a sign that acknowledged you were belonging to this God? What is the cutting prescribed? And I'll let you guys say it, because I don't want to If your right arm causes you to sin.

Speaker 3 8:50

Oh, are you thinking of the?

Speaker 1 8:51

New Testament, because I was going to say the cutting of the Old Testament was.

Speaker 3 8:57

I was thinking of the foreskin, I was thinking of your right arm causes you to cut that off like that separation, not the fist skin. But I wasn't thinking of that one.

Speaker 2 9:08

So you're talking about the covenant, so that was the sign and that's why God didn't want them to do other things, because it would mark them as well. You're following this other God, but God says no, this is the, this is the cutting.

Speaker 3 9:19

I want my people to do a whole lot easier show someone a tattoo than you ever wondered how they knew?

Speaker 1 9:28

that they spied out his freedom and Christ.

Speaker 2 9:33

Well, they accuse Paul of taking Gentiles into the temple. How did they know? How did they?

Speaker 3 9:37

know how did we get on this topic? I don't know. You're the one who brought up.

Speaker 2 9:40

Well, yeah, and then you guys became like school children.

Speaker 3 9:42

Well, it's tattoos. It's like grade school in here we're talking about tattoos. I mean we're going to get there, Okay.

Speaker 2 9:48

Well, so follow me on this, follow me on this, okay, under the old covenant, god says don't mark yourself, because those are the signs that mark you as belonging to those gods. I am the Lord, that's his reason, I'm God. So if you look that way, I gave you a different sign, and that's circumcision. So you brought up all these examples in the Old Testament that, yeah, we still follow that same idea today. We don't offer animal sacrifices because we have the perfect sacrifice in Jesus, and so we have these Old Testament shadows, but we have the reality of the New Testament.

Speaker 2 10:22

The New Testament equivalent, though, and in Colossians, chapter two and verse 11 says that in him you are also circumcised, with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ buried with him in baptism, in which you are raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. So baptism is that correlation under the New Covenant, and so it does bring up some interesting questions. That is one unique way to look at this is just because it's Old Testament and, yeah, we're under the New Covenant. It's not like the New Covenant is entirely new or alien or foreign to the Old Covenant, they're one's a fulfillment of the other. So what does that say about tattoos today?

Speaker 1 11:07

You bring up a good point, because I was just thinking of Hebrews 13.8. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. I mean, was God saying something different then than he would want us to follow now?

Speaker 2 11:22

Wouldn't you think we should keep the Sabbath?

Speaker 1 11:24

What's the New Testament equivalent of keeping the Sabbath Sunday?

Speaker 2 11:29

No, no, I'm kidding about that. I'm kidding about that.

Speaker 1 11:32

I don't think that's the correct answer.

Speaker 2 11:35

No Hebrews talks about. There's a Sabbath rest which remains In a sense. We will enter into his rest still. So these are all shadows of something that is fulfilled in Christ.

Speaker 1 11:50

And while we don't keep that particular like legally, we keep the spirit of it. Yeah, certainly we know that it's good to rest.

Speaker 2 11:59

And so this is the point, though, that you would make with this comparison is our tattoos today? Are they the same thing? Do they have the same effect? If you go back 3000 years ago, 4000 years ago, under Old Testament law, and you had a brand on your arm or cuts all over your forehead, people would look at you and say he's a follower of Baal, or whatever. If you see someone with a full sleeve tattoo, what do you think today?

Speaker 1 12:25

Well, am I supposed to answer that?

Speaker 3 12:27

What do you think?

Speaker 2 12:29

I don't know, I'm not sure it carries the same connotation.

Speaker 3 12:32

No, and I would say that another example that would be, in the Old Testament, a pierced ear for an Israelite culture was a statement that the person was a permanent slave. So, we have a different connotation in our society of ear piercings. I mean, it's not seen the same way and it's actually seen a lot more acceptable than even tattoos in some respect, or at least sooner than nowadays, when now one in four or one in five has them.

Speaker 2 12:57

So I think and that's just among all. People Go to millennials, go to the 40 and under crowd and it's almost 50%.

Speaker 3 13:06

So then, who dictates this conversation? And at this point, is this a society kind of thing? Is it based upon what they mean to society? Because at one point in time, tattoos meant something different and probably were more faux pas or more seen as wrong than they are today.

Speaker 2 13:26

And so does society. Take Even 40, 50 years ago it was a sign of a rebel.

Speaker 3 13:30

So we weren't allowed, yeah, and we weren't allowed to have I was just an artist, exactly so in my household, my father worked for a police department and in the space of how police officers see tattoos in these things is they see them as their gang affiliation and or in the demonic circles of which they have certain origin and meaning. And so I think there was a lot of meaning placed on these things, and I remember my father having a book of all these tattoos showing like. These are what they all look like and this is what they all mean, and I think that it based upon the certain circles in society and the time and age. And we're talking about military tattoos, we're talking about Native American culture.

Speaker 3 14:12

Tattoos mean something different to anyone and everyone, over generations and over your culture. So at that point, if the Bible doesn't say something specifically about it or condemn or approve it, are we looking at how society views that? Or are there any other things in the Bible that could address it other than actually about tattoos? Because the Bible doesn't say the word tattoo in there and it's wrong today. Is there something else that references it?

Speaker 2 14:42

And that's one of the points I was trying to make with the Leviticus passage is sticking using I'm not even sure how to word it right, but implanting ink underneath the skin in a permanent fashion. That wasn't even quite the practice that existed back then. So the specific thing of tattooing as we know it today wasn't really addressed in that passage, but maybe the concept. And here's where I wonder, like a previous episode we did on euphemisms, where you substitute a bad word with something that sounds similar but isn't the same word, and you say shoot, and you know what you're replacing by using that word. But does anyone hear you say that and think what a potty mouth?

Speaker 3 15:27

So if everyone has a tattoo in society today, it doesn't seem to be. You know, we have Mickey Mouse on your ankle. That's a lot different than you know a teardrop tattoo on the bottom of your eye, you know, in prison. So do we see them as different and are they less faux pas now, or are they less society-wise seen as wrong? Does that change, then, how we should view them?

Speaker 2 15:53

I think so to a certain degree. Yeah, it's not just dictated by society, but I think the fact that it's become widely accepted it's not a sign in general, it's not considered a sign or act of rebellion. I think that does change some of the perception, because you're seeing it quite a bit among Christians.

Speaker 3 16:12

Ward. But could it be? I mean, does the actual content of the tattoo then matter? Yes, Could here and actually be definite sign of rebellion.

Speaker 2 16:24

I mean, here's where we start getting into some of what Scripture does say If it doesn't talk about tattooing? Specifically, a Scripture like Ephesians 5, verses 3 and 4, might be useful, but fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you as is fitting for saints. Neither filthiness nor foolish talking, nor coarse-jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. If your tattoo has anything to do with that kind of stuff, it's wrong for those reasons, because we shouldn't have association with that.

Speaker 1 16:56

So Kyle and I am admittedly not studied on this topic, because my mind was made up before I heard the facts. Like all good Americans, but what in the Leviticus 19 passage like? Why do the scholars, or whoever it is they believe that the verse that talks about cutting yourself and putting tattoos on your body, why do they believe that that is directly related to what worshipers of other gods did?

Speaker 2 17:35

Because of examples like the one with Elijah. Yeah, like the examples in 1 Kings, chapter 18.

Speaker 1 17:44

And the other reason I ask that is because when I'm reading this passage right now and I don't see anything in the context that suggests like God is saying this, because they are tattooing themselves with pictures of Baal or whatever.

Speaker 2 17:59

Yeah, the reason is not given in Leviticus 19. He just says don't do it. But in that entire chapter it says you shall not be like the nations which I am driving out before you. So in the greater context that seems to be the point there. I honestly didn't expect to spend so much time on Leviticus 19.

Speaker 1 18:17

Wait, I cannot get off of this Leviticus 19 verse and I can't stop thinking about, like the whole Bible study principle of observe, interpret, apply. Okay, god is telling them don't tattoo yourselves. Why, right, let's interpret. What did this mean for the Hebrews that he is telling them like don't do that? Is it because that the people around them were doing that and he didn't want them to look like the nations? Because, if that's the case, then okay, observe, interpret, apply. Now what's the application? God wanted his people to be called out and different than the people around them. If our society is going the way of everybody's got a tattoo, then do we want to just go with the flow or should we be called out and different from the rest of them?

Speaker 2 19:07

But that's in the context of a law that governed a specific nation of people.

Speaker 1 19:12

But laws have principles. That's why God made them laws, and the principles still apply. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. The exact application of those principles may be different, but I believe that the principles are the same, just like animal sacrifice the principle of sacrifice is still there. We don't sacrifice animals it was Jesus, but the principle of sacrifice is still there. And so I think that those like if you look at the Ten Commandments, the principles of the Ten Commandments still hold, which one doesn't All of them do. So, yes, we may not be held to it in terms of a law and I put air quotes around that but I do believe that the principles stand and that we ought to consider those heavily whenever we make a decision. So I think it's worth studying in more depth.

Speaker 2 20:03

Well, it specifically talks about making marks in your flesh for the dead. There are some definite cultural considerations that just don't apply today. And what would you do with you shall not shave around the sides of your head in order to show you disfigure the edges of your beard. That's the immediate verse before it.

Speaker 1 20:24

Well, why is he saying that? Did he have specific rules for them about the hair on their temples and about their beards? That's what it looks like, though he's saying, hey, do what I tell you to, because I'm gone Kind of I can see in that passage how perhaps you know because translation isn't always exactly in an exact science I can see how maybe the meaning might be, and any cuttings or tattoos for the dead you shall not make in your flesh, and just the way that it's said is any cuttings for the dead you shall not make Much of.

Speaker 2 21:01

this is very specific, very specific to Israel. Like is all Novitikas 19. Verse 18, you shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Verse 19, you shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed, nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you.

Speaker 1 21:31

So, like and Kyle, admittedly, man, you know the Old Testament much better than I do, probably the Bible better than I do. I'm just curious, like why is God saying that you shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind? Is he simply trying to make the point like be pure, or is there some other consideration? Is there legitimately some other consideration there? Like you know, are these species you know less good? Or you know, if you sow your field with two kinds of seed, are there practical applications Like hey, don't do that, because then they're not going to grow well, or is it simply I just want you to be pure, so you know you can't have a polyester and cotton mix, I'm sorry, are you shaking your head like good questions? I don't know.

Speaker 2 22:24

Yeah, there's a lot in the Old Testament that seems kind of crazy to me. I don't know if you want to keep much of this back and forth. I can't keep a little bit of it, yeah.

Speaker 2 22:33

Well, nate, if I could just answer like in general, leviticus is one of the most challenging books to me because a lot of the rules are just. They seem absolutely bananas to me. But I think the point is what's the most used word in the book of Leviticus? Holy, Holy, holy. What is holy mean Set apart, set apart. You belong to God. God says. I am Yahweh. That's his reason for it Be holy, be set apart, be different. So we're left to try and interpret why. But at the end of the day, I think all these commands, whether it's the instructions about the beard or the crops or things like that, it's just God giving them rules that would make them distinct from the nations and expecting them to keep those rules. So it's all a description of holiness. Now, at the end of the day, I think your assessment is reasonable and pretty accurate that you are to not be like them. But we just have to ask is the art or practice of tattooing the same thing as it was back then?

Speaker 1 23:39

And I don't think so Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing as it was back then, just that it has a similar meaning today.

Speaker 2 23:45

I don't think it has the similar meaning today.

Speaker 1 23:49

It's not an association with a God, but this doesn't say that it necessarily has to be an association with a God right.

Speaker 2 23:57

Well, that's what the markings for the dead, that's what that statement implies.

Speaker 1 24:02

Well, okay, so why is that for the dead? And how do we know that that is for another quote, god? Because it says for the dead, like getting a tattoo for your grandpa when he passes away. That's kind of what I think of. We don't necessarily have to finish this discussion here.

Speaker 3 24:18

No, I think.

Speaker 1 24:20

Otherwise we'll be here forever.

Speaker 3 24:22

No, I think, as we've shown here today, that you can look at a passage and you can go through it two or three times, and it can kind of mean something different the more you go through it, and I appreciate the fact that we are looking at it very in-depth and trying to understand what principles we can expand from them, and I think that that's good, that's what we should do, and we should do everything in a meaningful way.

Speaker 2 24:43

All right, I'm gonna have to do more homework on Leviticus 19 then, all right.

Speaker 1 24:47

Kyle, I'm not trying to be mean, I mean I am no.

Speaker 2 24:50

I'm not. If you're wrong, just let us just move on, it's okay.

Speaker 1 24:53

You're entitled to your wrong opinion.

Speaker 2 24:59

You're gonna make me go get receipts on this one, all right, all right, I did not do my homework on the Leviticus 19. I just wasn't expecting to.

Speaker 1 25:07

Well, I'm not trying to. You can't be quick with us. I'm genuinely curious, that's all. So thank you for pointing out to me how right I am. I appreciate it very much.

Speaker 2 25:17

All I can say is you better stop cutting your beard. When I think about Leviticus 19,. What we have there is a bunch of examples that are literal and physical and the New Testament correspondence. You got the shadow and you have the figure. The shadow is often more literal. The figure is usually more spiritual, like our sacrifice Literal thousands and thousands of animals I mean millions, if you're talking over time sacrificed, literal blood. Jesus is the blood that. Where was his sacrifice in the heavenly Holy of Holies? It's a spiritual equivalent.

Speaker 2 25:53

And so the fact that they were to be distinct from the nations wasn't a very physical and literal way, with the crops, with the way they had their hair, with the way they dressed and when it comes down to morality and other more important things. And so I think that's where we have to draw that distinction, is the correlation, is we need to be distinct from the nations, that the examples we look at in Leviticus are very literal and physical and we're looking for that spiritual correlation. So in the New Testament we are distinct from the people not by our appearance so per se, but partially by our appearance, but more by our actions. Oh sure, yeah, and that would be the way I would kind of reconcile some of the odd commandments, that they were very literal and physical in their nature, whereas often the correspondence in the New Testament would be something more spiritual or metaphorical.

Speaker 3 26:47

I'm enjoying this. This is a great conversation, and that's kind of the point that we've always been really trying to have with the Exordia podcast is, you know, maybe we don't even come to.

Speaker 1 26:59

It's for me and Cal to disagree.

Speaker 3 27:01

No, like maybe we don't actually even fully come to like a strong. I mean that's why we said think before you ink. I mean the idea is we should do everything with the purpose and everything in a way that glorifies God, and so if there's a question about something, someone has those questions about it. It's deserving of our time and thought process.

Speaker 1 27:23

I don't like them, like particularly. I grew up and my dad was violently, violently. He was very opposed to.

Speaker 3 27:30

I'm sorry he was violently opposed.

Speaker 2 27:33

Tattoos yeah, violently opposed.

Speaker 1 27:35

And.

Speaker 2 27:35

I would often joke with him that if you keep this up, if he did something I didn't like, if you keep it up, I'll get a tattoo of your face.

Speaker 1 27:42

One day my brother came home with gauges. Well, I guess you don't come home with gauges, I guess they start out, you know earrings. But he came home with earrings. And then, you know, six months later he came in and he had gauges. And boy, I added. Everybody in the family heard about it. For you know, years after that as a result, but I do think that that rubbed off on me like I never really wanted a tattoo.

Speaker 1 28:04

I always wanted gauged ears. Yeah, I mean small. I'll send you a picture of my brother now, you don't.

Speaker 2 28:09

I don't want like the big old, like Funion, you know.

Speaker 1 28:12

Funion loops. Yeah, yeah I did. I did. I did, when I was 18, make a pact with some buddies that we would get made in the USA tattooed on our hams, and I did not do that. One of us did, but I did not.

Speaker 2 28:30

I tried to get my brother Ryan to get one that says sir, usda certified lean.

Speaker 1 28:34

He could do that he is. He is lean. This is true. Why don't we get a tattoo? The Exordia podcast that would be great.

Speaker 3 28:42

That would be great. We took a turn From I don't like them. Well, if you guys are going to do it, I mean Well, if you guys get one, well, then we stayed in the Levenicus a lot of time.

Speaker 3 28:53

But most people bring up 1 Corinthians and 6. 19 through 20 says or you do not know that your body is a temple in the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have heard from God. You are not your own where you are bought with a price. So glorify God in your body and most for a long time, I think, would reference and focus to this one, but we've brought this up in other podcasts as one of the most scriptures taken out of context.

Speaker 1 29:18

What chapter?

Speaker 3 29:19

versus that, john, chapter six verse 19 through 20. So I assume, Kyle, you're probably going to get to that at some point in time, but that's in the past. We've had that verse as a response to this idea.

Speaker 2 29:32

That verse comes up a lot in this podcast, and I think we usually debunk it the same way, but I could see the point. If my body is a temple, why would you want graffiti on it? Sure, now, the simple way to look at this text is specifically, in this context is dealing with fornication and prostitution. In Corinth, simple prostitution in the temple of Aphrodite was considered part of their culture, part of worship, if you will, and that was a problem that apparently was even in the Corinthian church, and Paul had to address it. So sexual immorality is really the key concept there, and so the idea of joining yourself with a prostitute, you're taking the temple of God and profaning it. That's the more specific context.

Speaker 2 30:21

But I think in this case this is more convincing to me Then the idea about gluttony Sure.

Speaker 3 30:27

I don't think. Maybe if you were trying to use this to say thou shall not, then it's wrong. But there is a point here in that we are to glorify God through our bodies, so is there a context in which a tattoo could not glorify God? If it was on our body, so sure you could find the content of the tattoo or placement or propriety of that. I think that it could be that this verse could be used for that or similar verses, but in and of itself I don't think it directly talks about.

Speaker 1 31:03

So that made me think of the passage that says whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord. So as you're getting a tattoo. I mean, imagine Jesus is sitting there next to you. Is he going yes, sweet, like, make sure you put it where people can see it. Or is he saying what would legitimately? What would he say, sure? Or if I'm going, to get my sign.

Speaker 3 31:21

What would Jesus do? Or if I'm going to give my sign of who I follow, then just get the cross right, Okay.

Speaker 1 31:29

So that when we were looking at what episode to do, I got the text message you know, what episodes do you guys want to do? And the one about tattoos came up and I was just thinking like if I got a tattoo? Oh, and then in a book I was listening to, it was like you know, people who write Harley Davidson's like they get the Harley Davidson logo tattooed on them, yeah, and I was just thinking, wow, what if I did something like that? Like I was bragging to you, john, about how I like Apple's products.

Speaker 3 31:53

What if I got the Apple tattoo? Yeah, yeah, what am I like?

Speaker 1 31:56

Yeah, what am I more of an Apple nerd or a Christian. If I'm, if I'm going to think that highly of a brand that I'm going to put it on me, shouldn't I think that? Shouldn't I think more highly of God? So then the only thing I should get tattooed on me, if I'm going to get anything tattooed on me, should be a cross, and this is always like that context of like yes, that would be better than anything else.

Speaker 3 32:17

You could get tattooed, get a scripture tattoo on your body. So, at this point, though, is you could be making whatever you're putting on your body, some sort of idol in which you're like thinking of and praying to and looking at, kind of like you could with jewelry or something on your wall, or your Bible, or your Bible. But, but my point, I think that content maybe a separate conversation maybe, or I mean it.

Speaker 3 32:41

Obviously we can go really deep into this based upon what content of the tattoos is appropriate or respectful or modest, and where it's located. The idea of modesty, I think, is important then we go that direction. But if we stay just on the sense of is there any sort of authorization for or against having tattoos, we might then have a shorter conversation.

Speaker 2 33:06

Well, I keep going back to older episodes. We've done like with euphemisms. The culture doesn't necessarily define everything that we say is right and wrong, but it does have an impact in that decision and our thought process. And, like with words, you know we might look at a word and say you probably shouldn't say it. But you know no one's going to look at you and say you're a pottymouth doesn't mean you should say that word but doesn't have the damaging effect.

Speaker 2 33:30

And same thing with with singing. We talked about instrumental music and I think we all completely agreed 100% that in the church setting, especially on the first day when we are gathered, singing is with our voices. That's the instrument. But we also kind of talked about the idea of if I'm going to play guitar and it's just something I do for fun why wouldn't I want to glorify God in even my hobbies? And I could see the same point that if you, if you're going to get a tattoo and it's something that's a scripture, that's a good reminder to you. I mean going to the Old Testament, deuteronomy 6 talks about write it on your doorposts and put it everywhere and surround yourself with scriptural reminders. And I kind of see that point that if you want a scripture now, don't think that that gets you off the hook from evangelizing that just because you have a billboard for the Bible on your shoulder or on your forearm.

Speaker 1 34:25

On your abs, yeah.

Speaker 2 34:27

You still, that doesn't get you off the hook for being evangelistic, but I could see that point, and but I do. I do also have some of those same questions about what kind of logos? What are you putting on you? If the Old Testament equivalent is don't mark yourself with cuts because it identifies you with a specific God, well, if you put a logo or you associate yourself with some sort of company or entity or person or or whatever, what is that saying to the world about what you prioritize most? So it's. I could go back and forth all day long on this about no one's going to think too much about it, but what if they do?

Speaker 3 35:06

Well, that's what I think of. That makes me think of Matthew 514, you are the light of the world. A city that is set on the hill cannot be hidden. At the end of the day, we cannot hide. You know, if we're doing our job, we're evangelizing and we are shining God's light, we're not going to be able to hide from the world, and so we are going to be on display, and at that point I think we need to take into consideration influence and influence matters. We can't control how people see you at all times, but there are some things you actually can do to help your influence. And so I think, in the world of modesty, in the world of you know how you're presenting yourself to other people, is it wrong for someone to have, you know, full sleeve tattoos, walk in there with a Bible and someone to think and judge them? Yeah, it would be wrong for them to do that.

Speaker 1 35:58

For the person to judge them not to walk in with tattoos.

Speaker 3 36:01

Or to be judged clearly based upon your outward appearance and not your heart and in your mind. But can I control everyone's invalid perceptions of me, and especially their first perception of me, if I'm trying to evangelize to them? I don't think it's right for people to do that, but I do think it's important to acknowledge that there are lots of people who have strong feelings about tattoos and strong opinions about people who have tattoos, and those opinions that first come to their minds and that they have you can't change immediately.

Speaker 3 36:39

I think the goal is, over time you kind of prove them wrong maybe of those things. But we do need to understand and not just say, not be rebellious in some sense too and say, well, that's their problem and I shouldn't need to cater to their wrong opinions and judgments. Sure, they should not have those strong judgments to judge someone from their outward appearance, but I think it's important to take into understanding that they are out there and you're going to have to battle them and prove to those ones. So don't be offended that they're going to judge you by your sleeves. You got the sleeves. You acknowledge that some people have opinions about those. Don't be naive to that and you're gonna have to probably prove to them that it's not a rebellious nature that you're having against them.

Speaker 3 37:30

They're feelings and we are talking generationally. There's a whole group and generations that have strong feelings about this and we should be respectful to them. At the end of the day, I do think tattoos have changed from 60 years ago to even 30 years ago to probably five, six, ten years ago, as Kyle's showing. I think they've absolutely changed in our culture and that has weight. But I don't think we can be naive and say, well, forget about their opinions and their thoughts, sure, sure.

Speaker 1 38:02

Yeah, you know what? I think it's a good thing maybe if we say like, if you do have tattoos, don't let that hinder you from seeking God. Yeah, like I just wouldn't want anybody listening to this to be like oh my goodness.

Speaker 3 38:16

Or go talk tomorrow and spend ten grand getting them covered. Yeah, maybe there's things you need to look at before ten?

Speaker 1 38:23

Sure, exactly. But yeah, what matters most is the content of your heart and the quality of your heart, not necessarily what's on your skin. But I do think if you don't have them, you know, think long and hard before you go and get them, because they don't just come right off. And what are you representing by putting that onto your skin? What message are you sending to other people? I do think that those are important questions to think about. And what you brought up to John, like don't be naive to the fact that you are deciding to get this and some people don't like that and have very strong feelings about it. So you are opening yourself up to criticism from them. Right or wrong, You're still opening yourself up.

Speaker 3 39:10

And that's an opportunity to be. You could fall in the temptation of being rebellious, you know, against those perspectives. Yeah, were you thinking about the idea of modesty and how it correlates with these as well?

Speaker 2 39:22

Well, that's a factor for sure. But again, are you sticking out If you have a couple of tattoos? Are you drawing unnecessary attention because of what's expected? And you just look at the extremes. You go to some like island nations where tattooing is part of the culture, isn't necessarily directly associated with pagan worship and it's just what they've always done. And like when we talk about the context of 1 Corinthians 11 and long hair versus short hair and that fun discussion you go to some African nations where the women have shaved heads and you go and teach them the gospel. Do you tell them they got to start growing their hair out right away? But that's the norm there.

Speaker 2 40:08

You go to some island countries and dreadlocks is incredibly common on a man. Well, no, you're a Christian, you got to cut your hair now. Well, he's going to, then he's going to start. I mean, is it? I get the idea of you shouldn't seek out and I just want to fit in and all that, but is there anything wrong with fitting in? Is there anything wrong with? To the Romans, I became as a Roman. To the Greeks, I became as a Greeks. To the Jews, I became as a Jew. Is there anything wrong with you know?

Speaker 1 40:42

assimilating.

Speaker 2 40:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:46

Well, I mean, it's absolutely something wrong with some way. Well, we need to set.

Speaker 3 40:51

So said the Borg command.

Speaker 1 40:53

I mean we still need to let our light shine and stand out in in ways that are right where society is, or culture is wrong, right.

Speaker 3 41:07

Yeah, we let our light shine, but I mean let God's light shine through us you know, and maybe I don't think that's necessarily right.

Speaker 2 41:16

I think that's part of the point about modesty, though when he talks about it, like in 1 Peter, chapter three, it's the idea isn't so much that here's what's wrong, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this with how you dress, it's more the emphasis of let it be the inner person that shines through. And you know it isn't. Someone shouldn't just look at you and say like first glance, oh, that's a Christian, I can see it by how they're dressed. No, they should say that's a Christian because their love for me is extraordinary, the sacrifices they're making for me, the choices that they make, the fact that they resisted this thing that everyone else is giving into. It's seeing their behavior, not necessarily seeing the outer person and saying they look like a Christian. It's they act like a Christian. So what if you look like some of the people around you, as long as it's not immoral or sure, like provocative or something like that.

Speaker 3 42:11

Well, obviously, though I mean the side point here is there are probably some tattoos. I've known so many people that have some tattoos and they come to Christ, they kind of change their life and they've gotten them covered or they worked that because maybe it was, you know, they had some gang affiliation things with them, maybe they were very vulgar and very inappropriate and they got cover up tattoos maybe not completely removed, but cover up tattoos. And so I think that some people will go through a process where they then kind of self reflect and identify whether or not the choices they made in the past and the tattoos that they have are the right mindset for them moving forward. And then we need to address that. And then there's some that look at them and go yeah, I mean, these are kind of a memory of the life that I once had, and maybe what I didn't have and what I want now more for the future. And so I think that also there's another class of people, though, that this would be more like me.

Speaker 2 43:12

Again, even though I don't have tattoos, this would be more. My line of thinking is they're cool, what's wrong with it? I become a Christian, so it's just. It's like a haircut or the style of clothes I wear Now. Granted, hair will grow back and you can buy new clothes. Tattoos are a bit more permanent, but it's just like that. If you want to get an extra piercing in your ear, or those are things that are just. It doesn't have to be something that is entirely vain or entirely about being immodest in the sense of all eyes on me, look at me, look at me, look at me. It can just be. This is just how I like to look, this is just. I like the look of it, and it can be just that simple. But what about?

Speaker 3 43:54

neck and face tattoos.

Speaker 1 43:57

Well, just make sure, if you get a word tattooed on your forehead that it's backwards.

Speaker 3 44:00

It's backwards and backwards. Yeah, it's not going to be properly in the mirror. There's all different types of tattoos out there.

Speaker 1 44:07

What about when they have twins or triplets and they want to tell them apart? I've heard of them tattooing the bottom of their feet before. Is that wrong? Like, put one dot here, two dots on that one?

Speaker 2 44:15

Yeah and the answer is no because tattoos are not wrong.

Speaker 3 44:18

Hold on, but I think what you're talking about, though, is important. There are some examples of some tattoos for medical and reconstructive purposes, and I think that it's not as cut and dry and just one type of tattoo or one thing these days and there's makeup tattoos there's just there's so many things that people have either done permanently, for different reasons, on their bodies, and so I don't think it's as cut and dry as one type of tattoo or not.

Speaker 2 44:50

Yeah, so there are examples like people that have alopecia and they're all the bodily hair, not just the hair off the top of your head, but like your eyebrows too. Yeah, and you can get that permanently, like they call it, permanent makeup, or it's basically a tattoo. But so you can't just label all tattoos as wrong, and that's the thing I'm going to keep coming back to is you have one verse in the Old Testament that sort of directly addresses it.

Speaker 3 45:18

And what we try to look for is corroborating and consistency in scripture when and before we make judgments on authority to do and not do things, and so I think that that verse alone can't be some sort of principle that you stretch across the millennia and through the Gospels.

Speaker 2 45:40

Yeah. So ultimately, that's what I'm going to keep coming back to is that the New Testament, specifically, is silent on the idea of tattoos. It talks about being modest, and that can be subjective. Dressing in style at what point are you now a modest? At what point are you now flashy and drawing attention by your clothes more than your character? That's a bit of a moving target and a subjective standard to figure out, but that is what God tells us and that requires reflection and self-evaluation.

Speaker 2 46:15

So if our culture has moved in a direction where tattoos are more and more commonplace every year, it's not viewed as an act of rebellion and they aren't, like 50, 60 years ago, almost exclusively associated with what motorcycle club are you in or what branch of the military did you serve in. It's now more just an act of self-expression. Yes, you can get carried away with self-expression. I think that's one of the concerns. So I would just suggest to you if you have tattoos, don't let someone judge you. You're going to stand before God, you're going to give an answer and, as long as you've thought that through, don't let somebody judge you. Don't let somebody make you feel like you're a substandard Christian because you have tattoos.

Speaker 2 47:04

If you become a Christian and you have tattoos. If you want to cover them up or remove them and that'll make you feel better, then by all means do that, and I think you should. But if they don't bother you now that you're a Christian and even though they're from your old life, don't worry about it. And if you're thinking about getting tattoos, the thing I hope you take away from this episode today is to just ask yourself why. I don't know what answers to give you, but you need to think about why you're doing it. And if you have an answer, maybe it's just as simple as I want to, and I don't think it's wrong just be convinced of that answer. That's all I would hope you would take away is just ask why and be fully convinced. Don't do it from doubt, and don't do it if you're living at home and your dad says not to why.

Speaker 3 47:53

And I say you know I've gotten into that conversation and pray about it. I think you can make the case that it's not the same back then as it was today. But think about the principle that you're trying to say, nate. The principle is to try not to look like the other nations and, just you know, separate yourself and be a light you know of in the world. Can you do that? If you dress a certain way, if you get certain tattoos, if you act a certain way, if you drive a certain car? All the things that we do shine a light, and so we need to think about them and carefully consider what we do with our bodies and what we do with them.

Speaker 1 48:32

I would just say if you have tattoos, don't let that stop you from getting to know God better. If you don't, if you're not a Christian. And if you are a Christian you have tattoos. Don't let that stop you from serving God.

Speaker 2 48:44

What did you guys think about this episode? Let us know. Wherever you listen to our podcast, look us up on Facebook and leave your comment. Let us know what you thought about this episode and we hope you subscribe and listen for new episodes every week. Thank you for listening to the Exordia podcast Order.

Speaker 1 49:05

The arsonist had an oddly shaped feet Ready to go. Let's do this.

Speaker 2 49:09

I always told my dad I'd get his face tattooed on my chest and shave my chest hair to be his beard. I don't have a Bible verse for this, but just please don't get them on your face.

Speaker 3 49:24

I'm just happy we went through a whole episode on tattoos and we didn't talk about job interviews. Every single article I ever find out there about tattoos it's like the conclusion is we got to make sure that people judge you in your job interviews.

Speaker 1 49:41

I had a buddy almost booted from the Marines because he got a tattoo around his wrist.

Speaker 3 49:46

There was a movie about that, Sean.

Speaker 1 49:49

Charlie.

Speaker 3 49:49

Sheen got tattoos on his backs of his hands. There were eight balls and he was sitting there like I got tattoos where they show he was trying to get kicked out of the military. That was his whole point. It's called Cadence. It's an old movie.

Speaker 1 50:06

Yeah, you guys know a lot of movies. I don't know.

Speaker 3 50:08

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, All right. Well, thank you before you ink.

Speaker 1 50:12

Yep, they're done.

Speaker 3 50:14

Kyle, are we good? Yeah, Okay yeah.

Speaker 2 50:17

I'm just studying Ovidica's 19 right now.

Speaker 1 50:19

Have you forgiven me? We're moving on.

Speaker 2 50:23

No, I just I'm going to have to come back and re-record part two to that where I I I, kyle, doesn't like losing. Oh, I'm not saying you do. You caught me on a bad day.

Speaker 3 50:38

I I.

Speaker 1 50:39

I it was in the competition and you didn't lose. The work is never done.

Speaker 3 50:42

Guys, the work is never done. Yeah, yeah, the work is never done.

Speaker 1 50:45

I feel like I should give you a hug.

Speaker 2 50:47

No, I'm just serious though. Are you? Are you going to stop cutting your beard then? Yeah.

Speaker 1 50:55

Let it grow.