Exhorter Podcast
Welcome to the Exhorter Podcast where we aim to stir up love and good works, through bite-sized biblical discussion. This local effort of the Church of Christ located in Clovis California is hosted by Kyle Goodwin, Paul Nerland, Nate Shankels, and Jon Bradford.
Exhorter Podcast
52 - Navigating Grief by Learning to Lament
Grief is a journey we all navigate differently, and in this episode, Kyle and Jon talk candidly about lamenting to God in the mourning process. We will guide you through the biblical accounts of expressing our anguish to the Almighty—taking cues from David and Jeremiah—and reveal how their example may lead us to hope and healing.
Finally, we honor the legacies of those we've loved and lost, inspired by King David's own tributes. We reflect on balancing our memories of those we’ve lost with our devotion to God and share intimate stories of how legacies have touched our lives. This episode isn't just about coping with grief; it's an invitation to carry forward the torch of our departed loved ones through kindness and service that furthers God's love in the world.
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Welcome to the Exordered Podcast, where we aim to stir up love and good works through bite-sized biblical discussion. Today, we are going to talk about a difficult subject, and sometimes we do that here. Sometimes they're lighthearted and sometimes they're maybe a little heavy. And we kind of do this because, you know, we try to deal with things that we come into contact with as Christians, and grief is one of those, and so, kyle, you're going to lead us through a topic of grief today.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you talk about heavy topics and light topics or lighthearted. Sometimes we mix the two, sometimes inappropriately so, but that kind of brings up the topic today is why would we bring humor or lightheartedness into a heavy topic? Well, that's a way of coping, and that's really what I want to focus on with the topic of grief is coping with grief, and I want to talk about two specific things that we can do. If you're experiencing grief and I say if, even though it's really more a matter of when or for those who are currently experiencing grief for those who aren't, you probably will be Grief, in my experience, is one of the most universal experiences of all mankind. Everyone knows what it's like to suffer a loss, so it is so universal. We all experience it, but it is also simultaneously one of the most personal experiences. What I've lost is not the same thing as what you've lost, so our losses are not the same. So it is, at the same hand, universal, but also entirely unique on a personal level. So we each lose something different, but how do we process that? We can all take some similar steps, even though our grief feels different from everyone else. We can all take the same steps, and it begins with turning things over to God. So the first thing I want to talk about is lamenting learning how to lament specifically to God. Talking to others and lamenting to others can also be good, but it must first start with God, and I've preached on this topic before, but I don't think we've ever really addressed it in the form of a podcast.
Speaker 2:Now much of the Bible is in the form of a lament. I mean, we've got the book of Lamentations, which is itself just an entire book expressing Jeremiah's sorrow. He had just lived through the destruction of Jerusalem. The temple has been desecrated and destroyed as well, lots and lots of people have died, thousands of people have died, thousands of people that survived have been taken away as prisoners to a faraway country, and all that was once special to him and unique to the people of God is now gone. And it's five chapters of Jeremiah wandering through the smoldering ruins of a once beautiful city, crying about how awful it is. But it's directed to God. That's the key there. And when we look at the book of Psalms, nearly half of the Psalms one figure I looked up says 65 of the Psalms would be characterized as Psalms of lament. So it is definitely highly represented in the text of Scripture.
Speaker 2:This type of expression Really what a lament is is a prayer of sorrow. It's expressing grief or sorrow, but there's a process to it that I think should lead to a more hopeful outcome. One example I can show you is in Psalm 3. This is just a really classic example of a lamentation and it's much shorter than the five chapters of flamentations In Psalm 3,. It's a Psalm of David, it says in the caption, when he fled from Absalom. So it's a low point for David. His son has usurped the throne, he's left in shame and it's just a really dark chapter in his life. Lord, how they have increased. Who troubled me. Many are they who rise up against me, many are those who say of me, there is no help for him in God. So what David is doing is, instead of wallowing in this grief or sorrow, he's vocalizing it to God, and we might think, well, we shouldn't talk like this to God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think in Nehemiah talks about when he heard about the walls of Jerusalem being broken down. They mourned for days, but he turns in and gives this prayer to God of gratitude. There is a time there where they were focusing on the sadness and the sorrow, mourning for days, and then turn that into a prayer of God, thanking him for keeping his commandments, thanking him for being there for them, and then it sets them on their journey back to Jerusalem.
Speaker 2:And that's what we see in these laments, even in the book of Lamentations, right there in chapter 3, great is thy faithfulness. That is really the one hopeful point right in the middle of those five poems. But they all express this hopefulness as the outcome, even if it's not complete or instantaneous. But grief and sorrow is not something that's going to go away overnight by any means. It is definitely a lengthy process at times, depending on what kind of grief you experience or what loss you've experienced. It can take a long time and maybe the feeling never goes away. But you find a way to put your trust in God and keep moving forward with your life. But this is the process.
Speaker 2:And so Nehemiah is a good example. And as I finish out Psalm 3, he starts with just I'm just going to explain to God, I'm just going to pour out to God what's happening to me and why I'm feeling so distressed. But then he goes on to say but you, oh Lord, are a shield for me, my glory and the one who lifts up my head. So his present reality is gloom. He's leaving Jerusalem. Fear for his life.
Speaker 2:His Son has taken all his concubines and taken the throne. The people that loved him have turned against him. His present reality is distress, but he is expressing through this lament here's what I'm feeling right now, but I will continue to put my trust in you. Did David have any clue how this would play out? He has hope in God. That's what he has. So as the Psalm finishes, he just says a rise, o Lord, save me, o my God. So it starts with describing his present distress, but it leads him to a future trust in God that I will continue to put my hope in you, even though all around me is darkness.
Speaker 1:God, if there's any light at the end of the tunnel, it's you, and I will keep seeking you I think that's one of our biggest worries is when we see someone go through grief, we just really hope that they keep their faith in God and they keep their focus on him and go through the portion of time where they can grieve but not lose something about who they are and where their focus is, because it can lead people away. And I think that that's just naturally one of those things that we're kind of worried about. And I think that when we hear people like this, you know, thanking God and kind of reflecting in a positive perspective, either through grief or shortly after, makes us feel better. We know, okay, they're grieving, but they're in a good place in that grief, okay, so they can stay there. I'm not gonna try to, you know, pull them out of that grief or anything, but I think that's one of those things is, sometimes we want people to get over the grief because we want them to not be lost in it. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah and well, and I think what the process of lamenting tells me is just that that it's a process, and we get so scared of grief for that reason that I'm afraid it's gonna eat away at their soul and drive them away from God that we almost want to rush people through it and skip over the grieving process. And I think what the Bible tells us about lamenting is no skipping over the grieving process just leads to bitterness, something that's slowly that on the surface looks like you've patched it over, but deep down inside it's a pit that's just growing like an abscess that's growing from within.
Speaker 1:So this is the way of addressing grief, whatever emotion it is, you suppress that emotion. You're working against what your brain needs to work out, what your brain needs to fulfill. So I think that that's kind of one of those things that's interesting. After someone passes away, we have a couple of weeks where we're bringing like casseroles, you know, we're kind of like really focused on a few weeks after that person's passing, being there for the loved ones and comforting them. But it's natural for grief to last years and so it's kind of interesting there that it tapers off very quickly. I mean, we're there with them in the midst of that rough time, you know immediate rough time, but let's say for the bulletin, when we have people that have someone passing their family and they're grieving. I'll keep that list running for almost a year.
Speaker 1:You know, keep them in that list, because after my dad's passing I finally really understood and realized this doesn't go away. You know, it's just kind of a constant thing you live with.
Speaker 2:Well, and the things that remind you can catch you off guard. A song or a visual, just a cue that triggers a memory and hits you with a wave of grief and catches you off guard. And again, I think we're afraid to approach God in this way, that we have to be respectful to God. And, yes, that's true. But again, look at Psalm 44, beginning in verse 23,. Awake, why do you sleep, o Lord? Arise, do not cast us off forever. Why do you hide your face and forget our affliction and our oppression? For our soul is bowed down in the dust, our body clings to the ground. Arise for our help and redeem us for your mercy's sake. And that's the end of the Psalm. He's still expressing that trust, that, god, you are the one to save me, but he's simultaneously saying I'm not feeling that right now. Where are you Awake? Help us, fix us, come and save us. So it's that equal acknowledgement. We look at that and think you shouldn't talk to God like that. But why are so many Psalms written this way?
Speaker 2:Or think about the way Moses spoke with God. Now, granted, moses was a peculiar case, most humble person ever, and God allowed a certain closeness with Moses than anyone else. But think about the way Moses talked with God. God said, moses, step away, I'm gonna destroy them all and says, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't Think about how this is gonna look to the rest of the world, how this is gonna look to the Egyptians, when the people that you saved. Then you turn around and destroy them. Oh, you can't argue with God. God, no, if this is the way it's gonna be, I can't carry the weight of all these people. I can't give them food to eat. I can't. They're not my children. If this is the way it's gonna be, just kill me now. You can't talk to God like that.
Speaker 2:But God never strikes Moses dead. God allows that Awake. Why do you sleep? You can't talk like that to God. But why is this a Psalm here recorded for us as if it's something to learn from? See, here's the difference. God took it personally when the people of Israel complained about him, but he accepted it when Moses complained to him. And that's what lamentation starts with. It's vocalizing your distress and it doesn't have to be pretty, but the benefit of this is you're not bottling it up, you're not ignoring it.
Speaker 1:And you're not accusatory, necessarily in nature. I mean, there's being inquisitive, there's being why you know I don't understand what this plan is, but that's a lot different then If you are, angry with God, though bottling it up is not going to fix that problem Right and honestly. Maybe you need to add that to your prayers. You know how you're feeling. It's not like he doesn't know it already.
Speaker 2:He doesn't want to be like. I'm going to hold back, you're not.
Speaker 1:We're going to say it to God, you can't play it close to the chest and hypocharts from God I mean don't do it during the funeral and don't do it during your prayer around the dinner table. But I think in your personal prayers and your conversations with God it's understandable to explore all those things you're feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's so. It sounds like too simple a thing, but that's why I think this is just, you know, one of the two things I wanted to highlight in this episode, because it's something we're, I think, we're just too afraid to do, because it's not the way we're taught to pray, at least from our teachers or from the pulpit. But on the page is a scripture. It is what we're taught page after page after page to pour out our emotions, as raw as they might be, to God. Like I said, it might be helpful to lament to another person, but I think you're better off pouring yourself out to God, raw, unfiltered, because you're at least addressing your feelings.
Speaker 1:It reminds me of Jesus in the garden. Let this cup pass from me. Was he really asking God to let this not happen? He was just recognizing the emotion, the pain and the grieving pre-grieving that he was going to have there. It's not like he was just questioning God. I think he was lamenting for what was going to happen.
Speaker 2:Well, and we see that in Matthew 23,. Oh Jerusalem, jerusalem, who kills the prophets that were sent to her? How I want to gather you, like a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings. That's a lament on Jesus' part, and of course there's great significance to what he said on the cross with my God, my God, why have you forsaken me being a word for word quote from Psalm 22. So there's great significance there and context that you need to understand in the fullness of Psalm 22. But that itself is an expression of lament from Jesus on the cross, and so Jesus is one to express that same idea of lamenting to God by expressing your sorrows.
Speaker 1:He told the Christians, the early Christians, you were going to suffer horrendous persecution. He didn't say and you got to be happy about it. I mean, don't turn your back from me, be God and follow him. He doesn't expect us to have no feelings about things or suppress those feelings or feel completely okay about things. What does he ask us to do in James? It's learn from them, develop patience when going through struggles and trials. So I mean learning from these things, maintaining godliness, hopefulness, trust in him. I mean these are natural things that he wants us to do. But nowhere in that does he say and don't feel bad, put on a smile. He doesn't say that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's okay to show some brokenness from this world. I'm reminded of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians, chapter 12. As he's discussed this thorn in the flesh that so many people have speculated on, what kind of physical infirmity is this? No matter what it is that afflicted Paul, I love his attitude about it, even though he prayed on multiple occasions for God to remove this thorn in the flesh. Jesus' answer to him is my grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness. So this is 2 Corinthians 12 and verse 9. Therefore, most gladly, I will rather boast in my infirmities that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore, I take pleasure in infirmities and reproaches and needs and persecutions, and notice what he adds here in distresses for Christ's sake, for when I am weak, then I am strong. See, when we are minimized, when our weaknesses are visible, whatever victories we accomplish are more easily attributed to the working of Christ. He is magnified by our weakness.
Speaker 1:If it wasn't natural, he wouldn't say mourn with those who mourned, he would say go cheer them up, there's a time for it. He glades, yes. He tells us for every thing there is a season. I think that that's the learn here is he just wants us to turn to him and not away and understand these things are not going to happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, before we move on to the second point I want to make, in this episode. Just to be clear, this is not an easy fix. Grief is well, it's a pain that lasts.
Speaker 1:You know to be real here, kyle. We've talked about this before. I don't know that I've understood grief until you go through it right, until you lose someone really close to you.
Speaker 2:You can kind of sympathize for people, but it's kind of hard to empathize really, and I think everyone experiences grief, but it's in like, it's scaled in a sense Like as a seven and eight year old back to back. I lost an uncle and a grandpa that I knew fairly well, even though I was young.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I was still young enough that I didn't fully grasp. So it hurt and I missed them, but I also I wasn't old enough to have a lot of memories with them, and so the pain wasn't the same as my mom losing her dad and brother in the same year. And then, as I grew older, I had to put a dog down, a dog that I had for 13 or 14 years, and that one that one was like it was a new, it peaked on my personal grief scale and it was just a dog, but I was really close to that dog. I had that dog for so long and that was one of the hardest things to put him down. But then I lost my brother-in-law almost four years ago now, and totally it's like your pain scale. Like you get a bruise when you're a kid, that's a 10. When you get a little older and break your arm and it's like oh, that's the new 10., that's a 10. Pain Kind of recalibrates it, and losing my brother-in-law was recalibrating that to well, this is a 10 out of 10 now.
Speaker 1:I totally get that, because it was during COVID time and I couldn't really get to my grandparents very well and easily and so we didn't see each other for a while. But we lost both of them within a year and that was painful. But I think because they're older and there's distance there and I didn't see them all the time, it was kind of a certain step up. But then to lose dad, my father, like a month after that, that was a whole other thing. But then again it was also kind of a weird crazy COVID time in this world that I think it took even some time after that for me to really feel and to kind of sit in that. So I think it's just one of those things that everyone's going to go through it. You think about logistics here. Everyone will have the same feeling at some point in time.
Speaker 2:If you came to this episode looking for a quick way to make the pain go away. We don't have that answer. That doesn't exist. This is not a fast process. It depends on what kind of grief you're talking about, what kind of loss you've experienced. But if it's that 10 out of 10, that deep sense of loss and pain and sorrow and grief, there's not a fast process, there's not a quick fix for it. But I guarantee you, if you're not lamenting, if you are not taking it to God in prayer even if it's an ugly sounding prayer and you think this isn't how I should talk to God well, you're not dealing with it and it's not going to heal. It's not going to heal fast, no matter what you do, but it won't heal at all if you are keeping it to yourself and not taking it to God.
Speaker 2:Now again, the point isn't just to wallow in sorrow. The point is to do something productive with it by putting it in context of the Almighty God. And again, most of these Psalms that are lamentations, like Psalm 13,. How long, oh Lord, will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me?
Speaker 2:They start with that hopelessness which is his present reality, but they usually end as Psalm 13 does with but I have trusted in your mercy. My heart shall sing in your salvation. I will sing to the Lord because he has dealt bountifully with me. So it's not an easy process, it's not a fast process, but lamentation offers you a way to process and deal with those strong emotions by slowly handing them over to God and slowly moving from sorrow to trust and hope. Now I think when you've reached a certain point of lamentation and you start to feel that hopefulness doesn't mean the sorrow has gone forever, doesn't mean you won't always have a bit of sorrow or pain from that loss, but when you begin to understand that hope, here's where I like this next step I want to highlight, and that's where you start to do something.
Speaker 1:And I think it's good to understand that this could be in a completely different time than other people. Right, that's how you do these processes, these places in different times. It's not a cookie cutter scenario here.
Speaker 2:For the last part of this episode. I just want to look at how David responded to the grief of losing his closest friend, jonathan. Second Samuel, chapter one. After Saul and Jonathan die, David writes a lament. It's a song called the Song of the Bow and it's about the death of Saul and, in particular, jonathan, and he laments the passing of his closest friend. That's where he talks about how my friendship with Jonathan was better than any friendship, the love of any woman in my life and people always whisper. Does that mean they were secretly gay? No, just read first Samuel and second Samuel and notice how David's wives didn't get along with him very well and you'll understand. He just says I prefer hanging out with my bro than I do with my wives.
Speaker 1:I have no idea what that's like. I would never say that at all. I'm not in his position. I swear no.
Speaker 2:But he's just saying that there was no one in this world. I was closer with that, I trusted more than Jonathan, and he's gone. Now Fast forward to second Samuel, chapter nine, and I'm not sure how many years have passed, but I think a little bit of time has passed. But notice how second Samuel nine begins. Now.
Speaker 2:David said is there still anyone who is left of the house of Saul that I may show him some kindness for Jonathan's sake? He's still thinking about his friend, but at this point, instead of just expressing his sorrow for losing him, he says I want to do something to honor the memory of my friend. I want to find someone, a descendant of his, a family member, that I can show some kindness. And eventually they track down Mithibhisheth Mithibhisheth is, he's crippled, and David honors him a place at his table. And you can read about it in second Samuel chapter nine.
Speaker 2:I'll just paraphrase David goes out of his way to say to honor Jonathan, who was such a good friend, I need to show kindness to anyone that's left from his family, tracks down Mithibhisheth and takes good care of him, puts him in a place of honor at his table, feeds him well, takes care of him, and that's always stuck out to me as something very powerful that when you begin to process your grief, I think it's helpful to start looking for ways of and I just especially the way it says there for Jonathan's sake, think about the person you've lost. What can I do to honor them? Now, don't get carried away with this. We serve God. Our reason for doing things is to honor God first and foremost. So let's not get carried away with this idea.
Speaker 1:We don't want to make an idol of this effort and this conviction necessarily.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm convinced that our loved ones are in heaven and we're reunited with them and we're there together. I'm convinced that's what heaven is. We'll cover that in a future episode, I promise. But we can't let that reunion become the main draw for heaven. God is still the main draw for heaven to be with the eternal in his presence. As Revelation describes, he is the temple. There is no temple in Jerusalem, it's God himself. There is no stars, no sun, no moon, because God himself is the light and he wipes away all our tears and we're with him and we rejoice. We're there together and that is a big component of it. But God must be the main draw. So anyway, just don't hear what I'm not saying, don't get carried away with this idea, but I think it is helpful as a way to move us forward in life. What can I do? I miss my friend, but what can I do to keep part of them alive in a sense? How can I do something that would honor them?
Speaker 1:I mean, I kind of liken that to making lemonade. In some cases I wish for my kids and my family and those who I love. I wish them to if I leave. When I leave this earth, I would wish for them to carry on in the most strongest way that's beneficial to them and brings happy and joy into their lives as much as possible. So I mean, I think we naturally have that desire, so we need to think that that's the way that our loved ones would want us to, and I think honoring them is for I agree, it's for us. It's a purposeful way to remember them and to honor them, but it's not necessarily something that they're needing from us.
Speaker 1:We do it for us, we do it for the grieving process, we do it for the good it can come from that and ultimately, because it glorifies God.
Speaker 2:I wonder if on a more subconscious level, because I was pretty young when my grandpa passed away. But he was a preacher and I've heard so many stories about him, so many people that were brought to Christ through his teaching and patient instruction, and I wonder if there's a subconscious element to that, as to why I became a preacher myself, just thinking that he did such good work and he's not in the world to do that work. Can I do that work myself? Can I pick up where he left off and try and further the good work he was doing for his God? Who is the God I serve?
Speaker 1:I think of the same. I'm not a preacher, I'm not like. My grandfather was my dad and both him were elders. So I do think that legacy you know we had a couple of podcasts, we were talking about legacy I think it's just natural for us to to want to make our fathers and our you know grandfathers and people proud, especially like I.
Speaker 1:I'm wants to continue the Bradford name in my family, so I want my sons to help that process too, and I would love if there were more Bradford preachers out there, you know, and that kind of thing. So legacy is important in some cases that way if it furthers God's word.
Speaker 2:I think about my brother-in-law that the thing that always stuck out to me is he was the least pretentious person you'd ever meet and he would make friends with everybody and purposefully go and make friends with people that didn't have friends. He was really good at that. He had no desire to be the coolest, most popular, at the expense of other people. Yeah, if it meant other people were ignored for him to be noticed, he wouldn't do that. And I remember at his memorial stories are being told about At a wedding they went to there, he was sitting with this 90 year old war veteran by himself, talking for an hour.
Speaker 2:Instead of doing other wedding activities with people, he was there talking to this, this old guy, and listening to a story and making friends with people he wouldn't expect. And that's what I remember about him and and that's that's my way of trying to keep what I learned, even though he's my younger brother, I try and learn those lessons from him and try and live that way. Now I try and honor what I remember about him by going and purposefully trying to make friends with people that don't have friends.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a beautiful thing because I remember when he was young he was a cool kid, but I didn't get to know him and see him when he got older and you're teaching me and you know, opening my mind to the lessons he can teach us, you know, and and not only I didn't even wasn't as close to with them. So I mean it perpetuates itself, right when we do that it's a good thing.
Speaker 1:It's a good thing, you know. One thing I just let everyone knows. You know where we're sitting here, kind of like holding back. We're holding it back because this is an emotional topic for us. It's something we've been talking about for a long time. I'm really glad that we were able to talk about it, because what we do in this podcast a lot of times is we just try to have the conversations that maybe not everyone has all the time.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's say it's okay to talk about this, or you know to, or it's okay to say prayers that are not pretty Right and maybe it takes a while time to deal with it and, empathetically, there's people like us that are dealing with it, so you have someone to reach out to and a kindred spirit, someone to understand that we all go through it and we all go through it in our own time and pace and it just doesn't go away.
Speaker 2:And I didn't necessarily mean to make it a step-by-step process, but it kind of worked that way. You start in with lament. That is, when you have feelings too deep for words, emotions so strong. You just start by directing it to God and asking for his help and eventually that process of lamenting will bring out hope and trust in God and hopefully bring about some change in that hopefulness that you can move forward with life, even with the pain you're feeling. And then the idea is that you want to take that and start living in a way that continues to honor God as well as honoring the things that you cherish about the ones you've lost.
Speaker 1:Thank you, kyle, for the topic. I'm glad we got to talk about this little more and it probably won't be the last time. I mean, as Salli said, there's other areas around grief and mourning I think that are important to discuss. John 1622 says so also. You have sorrow now, but I will see you again and your hearts will rejoice and no one will take your joy from you. And it's verses like that and the encouragement Kyle gave too, that seek godliness, your focus on God, and if you do so, you know then it's okay. How, all of our long you mourn, just always make sure that you're there glorifying God.
Speaker 1:And I love this idea of honoring people we talked about before. This is an Exordr podcast. You know, one of the things I always think about. It's in the name. It's in the name, and my father named the bulletin the Exordr and that's one of the things I wanted to carry on and continue to do in his absence and the absence of it being done. And we use the name because it means something, and so in some cases that's I think about this as a way to honor him and all the men who struggled and strove to do God's word that came before us. Thank you for listening. Thank you for your time. We hope that this has been official to you. If you thought so, go ahead and share it with others and like it, and we'll see you next time.
